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Curious about thread characteristics

woodfarmer

Plastic
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Hi
I have become interested in thread forms, which is strongest? Something with large crests and troughs such as acme or are finer threads better. Not so much small sizes but say 2 inches diameter and up.
I have tried to puzzle it out in my head but can't decide. Acme threads look strong but a finer thread would have more of them so might make back the difference.

If you could point me towards some reading matter on the subject it would be a great help.

many thanks
 
Pick up a copy of Machinery's Handbook.

There is enough information on threads in there to make your head spin.

51CnLZ9Q3OL._SX311_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


-Ron
 
It is not dead simple.

For instance, for a given OD, a fine, and therefore shallow, thread will leave a larger "core" diameter on a male thread, and so that male thread(a bolt, for instance) will be stronger than one of the same OD that has a larger, deeper thread cut on it. The bolt will be stronger, but not necessarily the thread. So it depends on where the weakest point is-will the bolt snap, or will the thread pull out first?

It also depends on the characteristics of the metals that are being used. Usually, threads in softer materials are made coarser, so that the thread itself is stronger than it would be if it were a finer thread.

These are just a couple of the things you need to think about.
 
Hi
I have become interested in thread forms, which is strongest? Something with large crests and troughs such as acme or are finer threads better. Not so much small sizes but say 2 inches diameter and up.
I have tried to puzzle it out in my head but can't decide. Acme threads look strong but a finer thread would have more of them so might make back the difference.

If you could point me towards some reading matter on the subject it would be a great help.

many thanks

You probably want the nuts, bolts, fasteners and plumbing book by, um...

https://www.amazon.com/Nuts-Bolts-F...rs+and+plumbing&qid=1588559062&s=books&sr=1-1

Also don't forget whitworth.....
 
The strongest thread? I think that you need to be a lot more specific about what the thread is being used for in order to answer that question.

If we are talking about a thread on a fastener or other device that only needs to apply force in ONE direction, then something like a buttress thread is probably the strongest of the common designs.

If you want equal strength in two directions, then probably the Acme.

Fine vs. coarse? Yes, more threads do make up for the fine threads being smaller. Looking only at the thread form, fine vs. coarse is an even contest. That is not the advantage of, the reason for fine threads. A fastener with a given OD will have a larger MINOR DIAMETER with fine threads and therefor will be stronger overall than one with coarse threads. So the advantage is in the rest of the fastener, not in the threads themselves.

And there are many other considerations. That's at least part of why there are many different threads. You just have to consider everything, not simply ask a blanket question and expect a simple answer. That is also why you are finding it confusing. For the most part, you can start any design with the common Vee threads and the coarse thread version of them (a UNC or ISO metric thread form). They are available with many different variations; different strengths. Then, only if your design needs something special that is not provided by a standard thread, you can look into another, special thread forms. 99.99% of the time the standard Vee threads will be satisfactory. Others will almost always cost more, usually significantly more.



Hi
I have become interested in thread forms, which is strongest? Something with large crests and troughs such as acme or are finer threads better. Not so much small sizes but say 2 inches diameter and up.
I have tried to puzzle it out in my head but can't decide. Acme threads look strong but a finer thread would have more of them so might make back the difference.

If you could point me towards some reading matter on the subject it would be a great help.

many thanks
 
You may send a private message here, your post mailing address and I will send to you, reading material. A copy of "Understand how components fail."
 
The strongest thread? I think that you need to be a lot more specific about what the thread is being used for in order to answer that question.

If we are talking about a thread on a fastener or other device that only needs to apply force in ONE direction, then something like a buttress thread is probably the strongest of the common designs.

If you want equal strength in two directions, then probably the Acme.

Fine vs. coarse? Yes, more threads do make up for the fine threads being smaller. Looking only at the thread form, fine vs. coarse is an even contest. That is not the advantage of, the reason for fine threads. A fastener with a given OD will have a larger MINOR DIAMETER with fine threads and therefor will be stronger overall than one with coarse threads. So the advantage is in the rest of the fastener, not in the threads themselves.

And there are many other considerations. That's at least part of why there are many different threads. You just have to consider everything, not simply ask a blanket question and expect a simple answer. That is also why you are finding it confusing. For the most part, you can start any design with the common Vee threads and the coarse thread version of them (a UNC or ISO metric thread form). They are available with many different variations; different strengths. Then, only if your design needs something special that is not provided by a standard thread, you can look into another, special thread forms. 99.99% of the time the standard Vee threads will be satisfactory. Others will almost always cost more, usually significantly more.

Many thanks, this has helped me decide at least in the direction I need to take. Normally my projects have little consequence if they fail, but this one is different so I am taking care not to make an obvious error.
 
One thing to note is that you will need to balance shear and tension. As others have mentioned, a smaller (finer) threadform will remove less material from the fastener than a coarse one. This gives you more tensile carrying capacity in the fastener. The threads themselves, however, are loaded in shear. The calculation for that is based upon the area of the roots of the threads, on both the male and female side. If the materials are dissimilar, you need to use the weaker one. Most often the female is chosen to be softer than the male, for reasons I can't quite dredge up without my copy of the Machinery Handbook out.

Having more of these teeth doesn't always translate to having enough strength because of elastic deformation! If I remember correctly, 90% of the load is carried by the first three threads, and 99+% by the first seven. If you exceed the shear strength of the teeth, the failure will cascade down the fastener, three threads at a time, and you will strip it out.

When did this become an engineering forum, anyway? :crazy:
 
From the advice I have been given I am leaning towards buttress threads of around 4-6 TPI. Given that I am working with diameters of around two inches I am fairly confident that the minor diameter will not eat into the core very much :)

Thanks a lot guys, I have been puzzling over this for a while and now have a much clearer idea of whats involved.
 
I was surprised to see the suggestion that the shear area for strength purposes was at the root of the thread. From a thought experiment perspective, at the root of the thread the only shear stress is that carried down from the smaller shear area away from the root of the thread, as the area of the mating thread goes to zero at the root of the first thread. Thus the thread would shear at a higher level than the root. It seemed to me that the pitch diameter would be the shear plane.

Practically, when I've abused fasteners there is usually thread left on both elements if the materials are similar.

This led me to Engineer's Edge, where they state that "per ISO 898" the shear area is .5*PI*pitch diameter*thread engagement length. This makes sense for matched materials, but with dissimilar materials, I would think the shear area would be at the diameter where the shear strength*area would match for both materials. This is somewhat confirmed by Screw thread Calculations statement "When the female and male threads are the same material." It has a lot of interesting material on threads.

But I'm a chemical engineer, not a mechanical engineer. I'd like to hear others more qualified than me chime in on this, as woodfarmer asked a very interesting question
 
I was surprised to see the suggestion that the shear area for strength purposes was at the root of the thread. From a thought experiment perspective, at the root of the thread the only shear stress is that carried down from the smaller shear area away from the root of the thread, as the area of the mating thread goes to zero at the root of the first thread. Thus the thread would shear at a higher level than the root. It seemed to me that the pitch diameter would be the shear plane.

Practically, when I've abused fasteners there is usually thread left on both elements if the materials are similar.

This led me to Engineer's Edge, where they state that "per ISO 898" the shear area is .5*PI*pitch diameter*thread engagement length. This makes sense for matched materials, but with dissimilar materials, I would think the shear area would be at the diameter where the shear strength*area would match for both materials. This is somewhat confirmed by Screw thread Calculations statement "When the female and male threads are the same material." It has a lot of interesting material on threads.

But I'm a chemical engineer, not a mechanical engineer. I'd like to hear others more qualified than me chime in on this, as woodfarmer asked a very interesting question

You're right that the root isn't exact, if only for the reason that there are root and crest clearances. There is some bending mixed in as well since the crest is applying force near the root of the mating threadform and vice versa. I've never needed to get down into the nitty-gritty of solutions to that degree of precision though, so "root" width of 1/pitch * 3 (first three threads) and shear strength of the material generally tells me enough to know if I should be worried about it or not. If the safety factor isn't generous enough I'd consider changing something, otherwise it'll be fine. It's honestly kind of terrifying how many things in this world are based solely off the gut feeling of a dude who is a bit rusty at math.
 
"... 90% of the load is carried by the first three threads, and 99+% by the first seven."

I believe that is a generalized statement that was never meant to apply either rigorously or even as a good approximation to all specific threads. It was intended to illustrate the fact that fasteners do stretch and in stretching, a threaded fastener will have a quickly diminishing amount of the load carried by each additional thread that is in engagement. So I doubt that a fine thread will actually have that 90% of the load carried by the first three threads as a coarse thread would. First, the coarse thread will have more stretch because the core area, withing the minor diameter, will be smaller than the core area in a fine thread with the same OD. That alone would provide a lessor amount of decrease in the percentage of the loading on the threads of a fine threaded fastener. A more fair statement may be to express this in terms of actual linear measure (inches or mm) instead of a thread count.

This increase in the core area in fine threaded fasteners and corresponding decrease in the amount of stretch per inch or mm of the length of the fastener may even surpass the simple change over to linear measure and fine threaded fasteners may even distribute that first 90% of the load to an even longer section of the internal threads. That would provide an even greater increase in the strength than just the increase in core area would account for.

Others have questioned the assumption that the shearing action will occur at the base of the threads. They say that it may, instead occur at another point, perhaps at or near the pitch diameter. I can point out that many, indeed most threads that I have seen that stripped have failed at or near the major diameter of the internal threads when the failure was in a tapped hole in a large metal part and at the minor diameter of the external threads (the bolt threads) when it has happened on a bolt and nut combination. I have never seen threads fail at the pitch diameter: indeed, for that to happen, both the internal and the external thread would have to fail at the same time and at the same level of stress. To my mind, the logical conclusion from this is to conclude that the failure will almost always be in the weaker thread. That weakness maybe due to the material itself. Even a grade 3 bolt in a threaded hole in cast iron will be significantly stronger than the cast iron and so the internal thread will probably fail first. And when a bolt and nut are compared, the base of the threads on the bolt will be at/near the minor diameter of the thread so they will have less area then the threads in the nut where the base of the thread form is at/near the major diameter and therefore have more area. So the threads on the bolt will often fail before those on the nut. This, of course, assumes that the bolt and nut are the same grade. A grade 8 bolt with a grade 3 nut does not count.

Thus, overall I must say that fine threads are probably stronger than coarse threads for the same OD and linear length of thread engagement. This may also be true for a given thread count for the engagement, but there may be exceptions there and each case should be considered on it's own merits.

By the way, that failure of the threads does not progress a full three threads at a time. It would actually progress one at a time or more realistically, around each thread in turn. Of course, this can occur either slow or fast and could take a long time or seem to be almost instantaneous.

On top of all of this, I can also say that in my own, personal observations, more screws fail by just breaking at the minor diameter, somewhere near the first engaged thread. Both the internal threads and the external threads are usually stronger than the core of the screw below the minor diameter.



One thing to note is that you will need to balance shear and tension. As others have mentioned, a smaller (finer) threadform will remove less material from the fastener than a coarse one. This gives you more tensile carrying capacity in the fastener. The threads themselves, however, are loaded in shear. The calculation for that is based upon the area of the roots of the threads, on both the male and female side. If the materials are dissimilar, you need to use the weaker one. Most often the female is chosen to be softer than the male, for reasons I can't quite dredge up without my copy of the Machinery Handbook out.

Having more of these teeth doesn't always translate to having enough strength because of elastic deformation! If I remember correctly, 90% of the load is carried by the first three threads, and 99+% by the first seven. If you exceed the shear strength of the teeth, the failure will cascade down the fastener, three threads at a time, and you will strip it out.

When did this become an engineering forum, anyway? :crazy:
 
1. stretch in both fasteners is the same, because fine thread gets higher torque.

2. in a bolt and nut combination (e.g. "8.8" screw and "8" nut) the nut is softer. the failure is (shoud be) in the screw anyway, for the reasons you stated above.

3. your last observation is interesting, because "necked down" screws should not work in that case.
 








 
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