Thread: Cylinder Head Remanufacturing

On top of all the great reasons already listed a lot of the new stuff isn't fixable. I could write a very long explanation on that but in general I only quote full motors on a lot of newer cars, and by newer I mean almost everything with DI.

Originally Posted by john.k

A lot of rural areas ,you gotta live there for 25 years before you stop being a "blow in" or "not one of us".

Here in the wheat fields of Kansas, unless you went to school here you are always, "that new feller in town" Going on ten years here new guy!

Steve

Originally Posted by workin stiff

You are a fucking idiot,

Classy post, thanks for your contribution.

Originally Posted by slowmotion

Unfortunately lots of shops still grind seats. They should be out of business IMO but they carry on, through the fog.



I have kept up with the technology and do blocks on a 4 axis CNC, so I get stuff sent to me from all over from shops that do not care what it costs. Hey, does that make me a guru now?? Can't be, I'm living in a van, down by the river.

I can assure you that using stones is still a valid method on performance heads, I can also assure you that a good guy with stones will do 10x better job than an average guy with the cutters.

After sending heads to every decent shop in the area with all this high dollar cnc bs I had to learn the old way, cause they can't seem to keep the tip heights the same, and make them concentric. You'd think shops that do high end v8 race stuff could understand the need to make valve train geometry correct, but because it's a 4 banger, fuckem I guess. 0.040" spread in tip height, I get them less than 0.005" with stones.

Same goes for this cnc diamond hone shit, takes FOREVER for them to seal up, and then still never sealed up good, like >10% leakdown. Old guy that normally does my stuff does it with an ancient ck10, nasty old oil, beat up stones, and they come out perfect and are less than a 2% leakdown before the car gets wheels on the ground.

Old stuff may be slow, but it works.

On the subject of seat grinding...what is the seat grinder that the grinding wheel rotates around a eccentric spindle in the guide pilot and grinds one small spot as it rotates.....Kent Moore made them ,but Ive also see a smaller Italian made one......I picked up a radial engine one with a very long spindle from a hoarder who used to scrap WW2 airplanes.

Originally Posted by workin stiff

You are a fucking idiot,

Lol. I almost missed this! What I do with your mother, and whether it's smart or not, is none of your business, Mr. Poopyhead.

Originally Posted by bastarddsm

I can assure you that using stones is still a valid method on performance heads, I can also assure you that a good guy with stones will do 10x better job than an average guy with the cutters.

After sending heads to every decent shop in the area with all this high dollar cnc bs I had to learn the old way, cause they can't seem to keep the tip heights the same, and make them concentric. You'd think shops that do high end v8 race stuff could understand the need to make valve train geometry correct, but because it's a 4 banger, fuckem I guess. 0.040" spread in tip height, I get them less than 0.005" with stones.

Same goes for this cnc diamond hone shit, takes FOREVER for them to seal up, and then still never sealed up good, like >10% leakdown. Old guy that normally does my stuff does it with an ancient ck10, nasty old oil, beat up stones, and they come out perfect and are less than a 2% leakdown before the car gets wheels on the ground.

Old stuff may be slow, but it works.

Well, we are seeing this from 2 different view points. You use shops, I am one. Even though a shop has good equipment, it's down to the operator, don't blame the machine. I pay very close attention to tip height and spring installed heights, which is why I install way more valve seats than most shops. I have seen some hideous valve work done with both cutters and stones and some superior work with both so again, it's the guy running the equipment. As I stated before, I will touch the 45 with a finish stone after cutting and I never have alignment issues, something many shops fail miserably at like you say. A blanket condemnation of new equipment over the old stuff isn't fair, or accurate.

As for diamond honing, I have one and have never had a complaint of any kind about ring seating. However, I check every block with a profilometer and the procedure to get good numbers with diamonds varies greatly from block to block. I check 7 parameters. If whomever you used doesn't do this and just does a one finish fits all approach, then yes, I can see problems there. Again, down to the operator. I will say this about honing with vitrified over diamond. It is much easier to get a proper finish with vitrified. I still have an old hone and have tested bore finishes using that. It's hard to get it wrong. So that old CK10 isn't magical, it's just old and slow. Going to an SV10 with coolant vs oil saves me at least 80% labor time over my old CV616. And it'll give max .0002" tolerance tenths in auto-dwell, better if I dwell manually a few strokes. Something you'd fight to get on old machines.

Since I was driving a basically street legal Nascar 40 years ago and blowing engines with regularity, speed shops, and automotive machine shops have gotten fewer in number on a yearly basis. Mind you all this was in SoCal. Large engine re-builders, put the squeeze on them first, then the price of the new stock crate motor price came down a lot, then stricter emission standards and black box cars took out the speed shops. I used to live in a town that had two places that all they did was grind crankshafts, I doubt no such places even exist in all of So Cal now.

Another issue is it seems not many people seem to care about keeping a classic car as original as possible, just toss in a new crate motor and throw some 22" rims on a 73 Monte Carlo.

Originally Posted by Dualkit

..automotive machine shops have gotten fewer in number on a yearly basis. ....

+1

Every time I find a great shop, they're gone in 5 or 10 years. Last one had *racks* of heads in for rebuilds. I was going there to get bike cylinders
bored and honed. The sunnen guy was a master at his craft. 0.0001 up and down the entire bore. They had the gages and setting masters.

I can't even find a shop with a blanchard grinder around here now.

We're going to have even fewer, with what seems to be the inevitable electric future.

I'm torn, I love gas racing engines and stuff that makes noise, but I also can't ignore the environmental implications of bazillions of IC engines.

Formula 1 is trying to bring in biofuels that are "carbon neutral", maybe that would allow some of the racing series to continue. I can't get worked up over electric car racing, it just seems soulless...

Originally Posted by Milland

We're going to have even fewer, with what seems to be the inevitable electric future.

I'm torn, I love gas racing engines and stuff that makes noise, but I also can't ignore the environmental implications of bazillions of IC engines.

Formula 1 is trying to bring in biofuels that are "carbon neutral", maybe that would allow some of the racing series to continue. I can't get worked up over electric car racing, it just seems soulless...

I had a Tesla pull onto a highway in front of me. Nice day, my windows were down. Watched it drift sideways across 5 lanes and zip away. I didn't hear a sound. Not even any tire squeal. It was unnatural. My poor brain couldn't process what I saw.

Originally Posted by Garwood

I had a Tesla pull onto a highway in front of me. Nice day, my windows were down. Watched it drift sideways across 5 lanes and zip away. I didn't hear a sound. Not even any tire squeal. It was unnatural. My poor brain couldn't process what I saw.

It freaks me out when I am walking across a parking lot trying not to walk behind a car ready to back up, then someone starts moving without any sound whatsoever. Doubt I will ever get used to that.

Originally Posted by slowmotion

Well, we are seeing this from 2 different view points. You use shops, I am one. Even though a shop has good equipment, it's down to the operator, don't blame the machine. I pay very close attention to tip height and spring installed heights, which is why I install way more valve seats than most shops. I have seen some hideous valve work done with both cutters and stones and some superior work with both so again, it's the guy running the equipment. As I stated before, I will touch the 45 with a finish stone after cutting and I never have alignment issues, something many shops fail miserably at like you say. A blanket condemnation of new equipment over the old stuff isn't fair, or accurate.

As for diamond honing, I have one and have never had a complaint of any kind about ring seating. However, I check every block with a profilometer and the procedure to get good numbers with diamonds varies greatly from block to block. I check 7 parameters. If whomever you used doesn't do this and just does a one finish fits all approach, then yes, I can see problems there. Again, down to the operator. I will say this about honing with vitrified over diamond. It is much easier to get a proper finish with vitrified. I still have an old hone and have tested bore finishes using that. It's hard to get it wrong. So that old CK10 isn't magical, it's just old and slow. Going to an SV10 with coolant vs oil saves me at least 80% labor time over my old CV616. And it'll give max .0002" tolerance tenths in auto-dwell, better if I dwell manually a few strokes. Something you'd fight to get on old machines.

X2 - if diamond-honed bores take too long to seat rings, it's the operator and not the process. Our blocks basically seat the rings on fire-up; no break-in necessary.

jack vines

Originally Posted by Dualkit

It freaks me out when I am walking across a parking lot trying not to walk behind a car ready to back up, then someone starts moving without any sound whatsoever. Doubt I will ever get used to that.

Should be a law, those things should have playing cards held in the spokes with clothespins.

trucks are required to have back up alarms ,so why not cars.....on lekkys ,why not have the alarm sound at under 5mph ,or 2mph ....no brainer.........Anyway ,as a kid I recall Ford Mercury motors running so quiet the only sound was the faint ticking of the fuel pump.....Tyres were quiet too.....all this excessive car noise is to appeal to young morons ...Why have special blocky 4x4 tyres that make an incredible din at 40mph......simple ,the noise appeals to 4x4 morons,and escapes the cops,as it cant be measured when the vehicle is at a stationary roadside check.

Originally Posted by digger doug

The machine that hauls the farmers butt to/from said farm machinery each day....

Nah that’s a f150 or similar in a different brand

Originally Posted by Dualkit

It freaks me out when I am walking across a parking lot trying not to walk behind a car ready to back up, then someone starts moving without any sound whatsoever. Doubt I will ever get used to that.

That’s why I paid extra for the blind spot and backup warning.
All the new cars have huge blind spots.

Walk toward the middle of the lane the sensors will pick you up

OT:
Should be a law, those things should have playing cards held in the spokes with clothespins.
We used balloons, I wonder if nowadays kids even know that trick..ops! kids don't play outside anymore with computers more fun, less work, safer with more crazy people out there, educational, able to chat, learn the things parents wish they did not know till they are 10 years old.

*A head shop also needs also to be able to check and repair a crack.. I know a new head is the drill but used car lots often send out a head and want it back functional (for a time). Drill and dowel is a common hack-job method of repair.

Back-up warning.. ok/good idea but every little thing we add to cars makes them more expensive.

Originally Posted by john.k

On the subject of seat grinding...what is the seat grinder that the grinding wheel rotates around a eccentric spindle in the guide pilot and grinds one small spot as it rotates.....Kent Moore made them ,but Ive also see a smaller Italian made one......I picked up a radial engine one with a very long spindle from a hoarder who used to scrap WW2 airplanes.

Hall-Toledo. Still in business.

"A head shop also needs also to be able to check and repair a crack.. I know a new head is the drill but used car lots often send out a head and want it back functional (for a time)."

One thing you learn early in the automotive machine shop business....do not do work for used car dealers! Any shop still soliciting that type of hack work deserves to be out of business. I swear, this industry has an inferiority complex. These shops let the customer determine the course of action on a job, which will always be the cheapest and lead to nothing but problems down the road, which will come back on the machine shop that did the work. And when it goes to court, the judge will put the blame on the machine shop because they are the "professionals" and should have known it was not the proper fix, regardless of what the customer requested. I've seen it happen.

The lock-n-stitch is a viable repair, I'm not knocking it at all. I have the complete set-up myself. Mostly because I bought a kit, another buddy bought a kit, then another one, now all 3 are in my shop collecting dust. We all hated it, couldn't make any money with it, and the folks who wanted something repaired wouldn't pay what it took to do it. A shop that specializes in this probably does very well, there are some amazing videos online showing some major restoration jobs. I especially like the one where a cruise ship threw a rod. Knocked a section the size of a personnel door out of the block. Could hardly tell when they were done with it.