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    Default Deep draw learning

    I am trying to learn all I can about the deep draw process. My end goal is rifle bullet jackets. But they have to be the absolute best that can be made.
    I am a cnc machinist and programmer (mastercam) of 8 years but I'm not a tool and die guy. I am looking for learning material and knowledge. I will take all recommendations of the entire process, design, equipment, tooling, High production low production I want to learn.
    One of many questions is: How are the dies made? What machines make them? I have been looking for an excuse to buy a universal tool and cutter grinder. Jig bore, edm? Best practices of running the equipment?
    To make the best I would venture to say, material, process, tooling.
    Any and all help is much appreciated.
    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shanej45 View Post
    I am trying to learn all I can about the deep draw process. My end goal is rifle bullet jackets. But they have to be the absolute best that can be made.
    I am a cnc machinist and programmer (mastercam) of 8 years but I'm not a tool and die guy. I am looking for learning material and knowledge. I will take all recommendations of the entire process, design, equipment, tooling, High production low production I want to learn.
    One of many questions is: How are the dies made? What machines make them? I have been looking for an excuse to buy a universal tool and cutter grinder. Jig bore, edm? Best practices of running the equipment?
    To make the best I would venture to say, material, process, tooling.
    Any and all help is much appreciated.
    Thank you.
    Impact extrusion:
    Impact Extrusion, Impact Extruded Parts, Cold Forming Impact Extrusion, Copper Extruded Parts

    both forward and reverse.

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    Hi shanej45:
    To get an idea of what you will need to master, Youtube is your friend.
    There are lots of videos showing the basic processes in an overview kind of way, but the crucial details are always missing.

    The principles are not that complicated, but there are a gazillion details each of which has to be right in order for it to work properly, and if your goal is to produce the very best that can be made, the term "right" means a level of knowledge and execution you will spend a lot of money on and take a long time to learn, because it's fussy and none of this is given away freely...you either have to be in the industry, in a similar enough industry to transfer knowledge, or you have to learn by trial and error.

    You also have to know where to invest in close tolerance work...in a lot of places it doesn't matter at all, but in some places it matters a lot and you can't tell just by looking.
    If you have a failure you have to decide if the failure is due to a design problem or an execution problem or a processing problem.

    In short...did you design an unworkable die?
    Did you build it so sloppily that it can't work even though the design was good?
    Did you pick the wrong feedstock, the wrong lube, the wrong anneal cycle, the wrong whatever?

    So this is an ambitious undertaking on all fronts...having some gear and playing with it to learn some of these things is great, and I'd never counsel you to stay away.
    However, your hopes of what you can achieve relative to industry best practice is probably naive.
    A bullet manufacturer will invest millions to get up and running...you won't have any of that, and it's not a process where corners are typically cut in the name of economy, so you can't beat them by being more meticulous than they are.

    But you can have a lot of fun and learn something cool, and get a barn full of new toys, so I say go for it!
    Just keep your expectations of perfection in check.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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    Implmex:
    Great answer.
    It's hard to find where to start. I have ordered a few tool and die books. But I'm betting for an entire book it will have only a little useful info.
    What surprises me is for being such a giant industry, how much room there still is for the little guy. Look at what Walt Berger did (RIP).

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    I could be wrong...but it seems that to produce a bullet is no big deal. But to produce 'the best' is another whole story. I think it would take constant vigilance, constant measuring, constant maintenance of tooling, etc. At some point it would also take a big initial, and ongoing, investment in a 'clean room' atmosphere and of course some expensive machines and tooling.

    That's why the big guys become big guys...so they have deep enough pockets.

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    Hi again shanej45:
    Look specifically for books on deep drawing if you want to copy common industry practice.
    You could also look at books on metal spinning and as digger doug recommends in post #2 impact extrusion if you want to play with potentially viable alternative processes.
    You can also look at electroplating and coining.

    Deep drawing is still the industry standard for copper jackets so far as I know, but part of that choice is its ability to produce very consistent product at scale.
    Whether it's the best process across all other criteria is another question...I'm sure bullet makers have explored it all, but their decisions are not always going to be based on the same criteria as yours can be.

    But if you want to do it like most still do it...learn about deep drawing copper.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

    BTW, to make bullet shaped cavities, a sinker EDM with a Rotobore or C axis is super useful.
    If you don't know much about that technology, it's also a worthwhile subject with which to become acquainted.
    MC

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    Die Makers Handbook 9780831131326 | eBay

    This will have some good "tips" about general die making.

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    Once you understand a bit of the basics of what is required for deep drawing you should skip ahead a few steps and look into what kind of presses are required to run the tools you want to build.

    I've been working on a product for about a decade that needs about 150 tons to draw 3/16 T-1 plate into a specific shape.

    Before I could make the tool I needed the press. I went with a 300 ton 9 inch stroke Bliss. Before I could move in the press I needed a foundation- 32 tons of concrete to counteract the inertia of the presses 5 ton ram stroking.

    The press I bought I got cheap because it needs a repair. 4 years ago I set the press on it's foundation. It took me 2 years to build the building over the top of the press. The press I bought needs some repairs to a 5" shaft so I bought a 4" HBM to do the repairs. It goes on and on.

    I have about $20k into a press that doesn't work yet and support equipment to run and maintain it. I saved about $300k not buying a late model press ready to run, so there's that.

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    I received the die makers hand book only a few days ago.
    I have had the thought that the type of press will have a big say how the die is designed.
    If anyone knows more about presses for this application I'm all ears. The press companies don't want to talk about the presses but they do want to sell you one. Also, they are only the super high production type.
    I have to look into impact extrusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Once you understand a bit of the basics of what is required for deep drawing you should skip ahead a few steps and look into what kind of presses are required to run the tools you want to build.

    I've been working on a product for about a decade that needs about 150 tons to draw 3/16 T-1 plate into a specific shape.

    Before I could make the tool I needed the press. I went with a 300 ton 9 inch stroke Bliss. Before I could move in the press I needed a foundation- 32 tons of concrete to counteract the inertia of the presses 5 ton ram stroking.

    The press I bought I got cheap because it needs a repair. 4 years ago I set the press on it's foundation. It took me 2 years to build the building over the top of the press. The press I bought needs some repairs to a 5" shaft so I bought a 4" HBM to do the repairs. It goes on and on.

    I have about $20k into a press that doesn't work yet and support equipment to run and maintain it. I saved about $300k not buying a late model press ready to run, so there's that.
    I wonder how they did it here:
    Bliss 60 Ton Punch Press, Horizontal - business/commercial - by...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails horizontal-punch-press.jpg  

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    Hi again Shane:
    If I'm not much mistaken, impact extrusion requires similar tonnage to coining, so roughly ten times the tonnage required for drawing.
    Even a smallish coining press for jewelers is up in the region of 100 tons.
    Do you have the facilities you need (including power) to house a beast like that?

    One of the posters here has a jewelry supply business. (his name is Kevin Potter)
    He makes a desktop 100 ton coining press, but it's a completely manual tool, you can run one jacket a minute but not 100 jackets a minute on a press like this.

    So depending on what kind of volumes you want to run and whether you're figuring this out for fun or hope to make a business of it, you could get a press like this and monkey around with it.

    It won't give you the ram speed you need for impact extrusion though, it's a coining press.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    That's a neat press, but I don't think it needs much consideration for a foundation as small as it is or at just 1" stroke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    That's a neat press, but I don't think it needs much consideration for a foundation as small as it is or at just 1" stroke.
    I would think a longer stroke would be less impact.

    You could always weld up some bucket holders on the sides and use it to mix paint....

    CeCo makes a horizontal forging press that has (2) rams that oppose each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post

    Learn about the "Waterbury Farrel Transfer Press". Refer to "Die Design And Die Making Practices" by the Industrial Press. You may have to hunt for a copy. I'm not sure it is still in print. EBAY may be a source. The copy I have is Third addition copyrighted 1930,1941,1951. This is a good study for anyone wanting to become knowledgeable in Drawing and Draw dies.
    Build your punches and die details from D2 Tool Steel or Carbide depending on production requirements.

    Roger

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    I found the 1941 version of die design and die making proceses. It Is enroute.
    Thank you for the recommendation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shanej45 View Post
    I found the 1941 version of die design and die making processes. It Is enroute.
    Thank you for the recommendation.
    Shanej45
    Go to Youtube "How to make Copper Jacketed Bullets"
    This will give you a good idea what it takes to make jacket bullets. And at least an idea of the process and rudimentary tooling for blanking and the progressive shell drawing needed to obtain the finished diameter for the caliber being produced. If your going to go into commercial production look at a Waterbury Farrel transfer press.

    Roger

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    I did see the YouTube site. NYC CNC is a great channel. I most likely will follow his path and make something to test around with while I'm figuring out the next step

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    We used to do some deep drawing at one place I worked. Probably 3"+ deep with forming punches to extrude holes for taps. 1/8" thick mild steel. You will need LOTS of lube. One 'dry' hit and you are going to have a mess.

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    I got 3 books in so far. They are ok. They cover the basics. But they dont really go into deep draw. Usually a paragraph or page.
    The best I got so far was an article at machinemfg.com but he does not list his sources.

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    Hi again shanej45:
    Yes, you will get general principles from books, but you will not get a detailed recipe of how to go about your build; you are expected to have the design principles well absorbed and you are expected to have mastered the skills needed to exercise the engineering judgement for your design.
    You are also expected to know what the terms mean in some detail when it comes to individual processes.

    For example, the books all say to polish the punch and the lead-in radius of the draw cavity.
    But no one tells you what that really means:
    Do you draw polish it or just spin it in the lathe with some emery cloth?
    Do you diamond polish it or just buff it on a felt wheel with tripoli and rouge?
    How fine?
    Does it need to be hardened first?
    How hard?

    If you do it wrong, bad shit happens...either it doesn't work or it doesn't last very long or it works for a bit and then crashes etc etc.

    These are the details you're looking for and these are the details you will only learn by doing and by tapping into the experience of others.
    Traditionally, that means an apprenticeship as a diemaker, and then mentorship in a company that makes these things for long years to get the experience to know what will likely work and how to go about it.

    You want to do roughly the equivalent in a couple of months with YouTube and a couple of books, at least for this project: presumably you are less interested in all the other stuff a diemaker is expected to know, so you need less years than you would to get everything to be a competent diemaker, but not that much less.

    That's a taller order than you may appreciate.

    On another but related note; there's a guy on YouTube who does some impressive toolmaking at extreme levels of precision.
    His name is Robin Renzetti.
    I point you in his direction because of the wealth of just the kind of detailed knowledge you need to build complex stuff...his domain is not exactly what you're after, but his videos show just how much is involved and he gives some very detailed descriptions of what he's doing and why.
    There's a blurbie about him making some carbide spheres to a very high standard, that is worth seeing: not so you can make carbide spheres too, but so you can see how much he needed to know and to do, in ways you'd never even think of and never find in a book.

    You will need to get that level of skill to make something truly the best it can be, and the way forward is not only to read and dream about it, but to get your hands dirty and serially fail without shame until you succeed.

    So by all means enjoy the books and learn from them, but make chips too.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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