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dividing head problems.

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Plastic
Joined
Jul 18, 2019
Hi, New to the site. I'm a machinist in a small shop, Only 3 of us. Me the machinist, One millwright and a labourer. I need to machine a new spline on a shaft with very limited tooling. We have a very small dividing head and few options to choose. I need to cut a 39 tooth spline and only have 63, 33,31,29,27,23,21,13 hole plates to work with. I am not so familiar with the calculations involved as I work on heavy equipement most of my working day. I thought I had it with one turn and one hole on the 13 hole circle but dose not look to be, 7 teeth in. if anyone has any input I would appreciated it.

Thank you,
B
 
Thank you for the reply.

The thing is... I don't have a 39 hole plate. That is what I expected to do when I looked it up in the bible, My boss dose not understand that. If you or anyone knows if this can be done with what I have I would love to hear.

Thanks agian.
 
Most dividing heads have a 40:1 reduction ratio, meaning if you rotate the index plate 40 times, the output shaft goes around exactly once. If your head is 40:1, none of your existing hole circles will work.

BUT, if your dividing head happens to be a 60:1 or 90:1 head (or any other number with a factor of 3 in it), then the 13-hole circle will work. If you have a gear reducer in the shop with a factor of 3 in the reduction ratio, you could drive that reducer from the dividing head, drive the work from the reducer output, and use the 13-hole wheel on the index plate.

You might pick up an index plate of approximately the right size with a 39-hole circle and make a quick adapter to mount it to your existing dividing head. I.e., buy new replacement parts or used off eBay.

You could also originate a 39-hole circle. This is time consuming, but not incredibly hard to do, with shop-made buttons. In fact, if you're willing to live with decent-but-not-incredible accuracy, it can be done very quickly by drafting a paper/shim strip with 40 equally spaced points, and machining a largeish disk so the strip fits exactly around the circumference, then making an index plate by direct indexing.
 
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Sounds good. I was thinking I would try with the backyard way of doing it for what it is and do the 13 hole circle. One full turn and 1/3 the space then full 1 turn and 2/3 space sort of thing if that makes sense. But I'll just make a mess.

Thanks for the input,
 
Angular dividing is all about prime numbers. Somewhere in your worm gear and hole plate you need ALL of the prime numbers in your desired division. 39 is a composit number and contains the prime number 3 and 13 (3 X 13 = 39) so you must have the prime numbers 3 and 13 somewhere. None of the common worm ratios will have 13 in their prime number complement but some may have the 3. So you will have to have either a 13 hole circle with the factor of 3 in the worm or a 39 hole one with the more common 40::1 worm ratio. Hence you need a hole circle with either 13 holes or some multiple of that (13, 26, 39, etc.) or one with 39 holes or some multiple of that (78, 117, etc.)

You can either buy one or MAKE one. Buying one may be problematic if your dividing head is not a common brand as there is no guarantee that a hole circle from one brand will fit on another brand.

There are several approaches to making one. The first thing you need to have in mind is the angular accuracy that your job needs. There is no sense in wasting time in a commercial shop making one that is better than what you actually need. You need to make a spline so I think you may not need the ultimate accuracy.

I will estimate the resulting accuracy but you did not mention what worm ratio your head has so I will assume the most common one which is 40::1. If yours is different, then the accuracy estimates will be off. The common principle here is the fact that a worm drive in a dividing head or rotary table functions in an accuracy amplifier when you use a plate with a hole circle. This means that if you have a circle of holes and they are located +/- 0.5 degrees and you use that to make a part OR ANOTHER HOLE CIRCLE WITH THE SAME NUMBER OF HOLES, then the error will be reduced by a factor of 40 with a 40::1 worm. So your resulting error would be only 0.5° / 40 = 0.0125° or about 45 seconds of arc. And that is pretty good. Of course, you are also limited by the accuracy of the worm itself. Keeping this in mind, here are some methods for making your 39 hole circle, in order of increasing accuracy.

For all the methods you must first make a blank disk that will fit on your head.

Method 1: Using manual layout techniques, lay out a circle on your blank disk and then manually divide it into 39 divisions. This can be done with layout die and a drafting compass. Take a guess at the needed division and then step around the scribed circle 39 times. See how far off you are off and adjust the compass by about 1/39 of that amount and try again. Do this until your 39th step lands on your starting point. Then do it for real, scribing a small arc that intersects the scribed circle. Using a magnifier and a prick punch, locate each hole as accurately as possible at the intersection of those 39 arcs. Then carefully punch then and finally drill them with a new drill. A reamer for final size would be an additional touch. With care, you should be able to locate those 39 holes to an accuracy of around +/- 0.003". If you used a circle of about 3" diameter, the radius would be 1.5". Using trig, the angular error in your manually constructed hole circle would be about sin(0.003/1.5) = 0.115°. And if you use that hole circle, the worm's 40x reduction in that error would yield an error of about 0.0029° in your spline. That's about 10 arc seconds. My 10 inch RT is not that good and I doubt that the worm in your indexing head is either.

Method 2: This is much the same as Method 1 except you can use a CAD program to lay out the hole circle for your blank. With care, this will probably result in a similar level of accuracy as Method 1. The sources of error are a bit different, but some will be greater and others will be less so they will probably average out and you wind up with that same final error in your spline.

Method 3: This will yield a hole plate with greater accuracy than Methods 1 and 2. I doubt that this is necessary, but the resulting plate could be used for direct indexing instead of using the worm. Many indexing heads allow for this and it can be a time saver if a lot of parts are being made. Instead of making just one blank plate you make two or three. The first one can be a lot sloppier than with Methods 1 and 2. Use that first plate to make a second generation one which will have only 1/40th of the error of the first. Then, a third can be made with the second one and it will again be 40 times more accurate. If you start with a plate with an accuracy of only +/- 1° for the first plate, using rough, manual methods then the second generation plate will be +/- 0.025° and the third generation plate would be +/- 0.0006° or 2.25 arc seconds. I will guarantee you that the worm in your indexing head is no way near that accuracy. It is about as accurate as you can do with your head.

That's three ways to make a hole circle with an accuracy that you may need for your part.
 
Here is another approach that works with the idea of acceptable error. Again, I am assuming that you have a 40::1 worm. Your 63 hole circle will provide the finest divisions of any of the ones you have. By a judicious choice between 1 turn/1 hole and 1 turn/2 holes, you can alternate between a small positive error and a small negative error. I have used Excel to generate a table for doing this. Each line has either a one hole or a two hole move: these were chosen individually to minimize the magnitude of the error produced in that step. The largest angular error that is produces is 0.066 degrees and this translates to a linear error of about 0.00058" on the OD of a part that is one inch in diameter. It would be proportionally larger for larger diameters or smaller for smaller diameters. Here is the chart:

attachment.php


You could use this two ways. First, it could be used directly for making your part with the spline. This would be on the condition that the errors would be acceptable.

Second, you could use it to make a new, 39 hole circle plate as I described in my previous post and use that 39 hole plate for making your part. This plate would have 40 times less error and would essentially be as accurate as the worm gear in the dividing head. You can't do any better than that with what you have.

Just for fun I tried a similar table using your 13 hole circle. But, as I expected, the maximum errors were a lot bigger than with the 63 hole circle.
 
you can have miscount errors which is all too easy to do.
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and you can have backlash problems reversing direction
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and you can have when you release lock if under pressure it can jump a bit or move. that is for example with a boring bar head when you release lock you push on cutter with thumb, always adjust to bigger size, keep thumb on bit while tightening lock. if you need to go smaller you over shoot much smaller and come back to adjusting bigger
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if you got internal pressure on it and release lock it can easily jump more than tolerance. and if cutting is heavy enough you can over whelm the lock and part can move. if rotary table on a cnc moves .001 degree the cnc will shut down with error message. on manual machine you might not even realized it moved
 
You've got a mill. Just do the X-Y locations of the holes in the needed plate and go to town. CAD makes it easy, but calculators still work too. Definitely don't reverse direction with a dividing head!
 
before you do any of this, line up what ever indexing marks you may have on your head. make some if needed. then crank it around counting each full turn until the marks align again so you can determine if your head is 40:1 or something different. then engrave that ratio on your (indexing) head. now you can make if needed most any count hole plate you might need.

working on large shafts, we would often make a clamping collar to fit the part on a convenient diameter, then use an accurate machine (in this case sip jig bore) to put bored & reamed holes in the proper relationship way on the outside edge of the collar. then use a dowel pin in the holes, and rotate the pin to a set of jo blocks on centerline, clamp the part, mill the feature (slot), index and repeat. many of the cylinders we made might have 6, 8 or more slots that would not have an equal spaced angular relationship, this worked very well.

other parts (die and punch rings) were done by using the same procedure, leaving a face on the part xtra thick, machining the index holes in the face, use same dowel index procedure, machine the periphery holes, then face off the extra stock and index holes. made more than one set of rings on a Bridgeport, and never had a reject. in fairness, the periphery holes on these rings have tight locational specs that may not have been exactly met. in reality, they ended up on 40 year old printing shop machinery, and the parts worked just fine.
 
I have one extra plate for my dividing head. I will check tomorrow to see if it has a 39 hole circle.

39 is on the #3 or "C" plate for Vertex (which copied B&S, or so it seems), Ellis, Shars, L&W, and on the "A" plate for several rotabs from China or India convertible to DH that usually have 90:1 rather than 40:1 ratios.

39 is not listed for the "well-known" BirdPort-branded DH plates, but neither is that DH all that common.

Fast enuf to order the Shars - or is it "King tools" in Canada? - whole set, adapt the kit to the existing DH.

Just me, I'd want to have a CNC shop make me a 39 slot "spacer" instead (which the Ellis DH can use. YMMV).

Otherwise, a spacer is faster to use by far than a DH. Better-yet, waaay harder to screw up on the next-to-last advance. Cannot go to a "wrong"place. Can accidentally skip a move, but BFD, also come back and fill-in easily.

2CW
 
This isn't quite on topic but I saw this thread title and at first thought it said "Giving head problems" and I was a bit taken aback by it. Not gonna lie I was a little disappointed...
 
Use the hole pattern function on your DRO to create your own 39 hole plate.

Another option is to use a rotary table. Calculate the angles for each of the 39 positions and dial them in.
 
These would be the numbers for a rotary table 39 holes:
0
9.23076
18.46153
27.69230
36.92307
46.15384
55.38461
64.61538
73.84615
83.07692
92.30769
101.53846
110.76923
120
129.23076
138.46153
147.69230
156.92307
166.15384
175.38461
184.61538
193.84615
203.07692
212.30769
221.53846
230.76923
240
249.23076
258.46153
267.69230
276.92307
286.15384
295.38461
304.61538
313.84615
323.07692
332.30769
341.53846
350.76923
 
I have a plate with 39 holes you can use. Just pay shipping both ways. PM me if you want. There is no hurry to return it. Look at picture and see if it will work for your dividing head. If not use it directly.

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Just a quick thought. A lot of Ford truck axles have 39 splines. Not all but a lot do. Go to a ford dealer and see if they have any old ones laying around and you can direct index from one of them.
 








 
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