Do you actually anchor equipment to the floor?
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    Default Do you actually anchor equipment to the floor?

    I scored a Sharp 1660C lathe that originally did it's time in a Bosch factory in Atlanta. I hit up Sharp for a manual. It shows in the installation section that it needs to be anchored to the floor with cemented L-hooks.

    Does anyone actually do this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear624 View Post
    I scored a Sharp 1660C lathe that originally did it's time in a Bosch factory in Atlanta. I hit up Sharp for a manual. It shows in the installation section that it needs to be anchored to the floor with cemented L-hooks.

    Does anyone actually do this?
    If you want to have the machine actually meet the tolerances specified.

    FWIW "Cemented L-hooks" is pretty old style, many have had success with a simple drilled hole, all thread and epoxy.

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    Some years back I got a 40 taper Mori Seiki VMC w/pallet changer that weighs I think 15-16K pounds. It also had an installation manual that showed an entire foundation system. Dig a big hole, lay in the sides and isolate from the main slab, tons of concrete, the whole works. Of course it also said how important it was to do so. I was willing physically and financially and wanting to do it but I started asking around with the same question you're using now. I couldn't get a single person either from machine dealers to fellow shop owners to fellow machinists to say they'd ever done it or seen it done. Again... even machine dealers who install this stuff.

    You know what now... five years later? I wish I had. I can feel when trucks go by outside and hit some depression in the road which is about 75 yards away. I see small tell tale bouncing signs in finishes in this mill and others here, and am always amazed at with sensitive equipment you can can see movement at the machine with the tiniest twist of an adjustment foot or simply stomping on the ground near the machine. (I'm in an industrial building)

    This thing is a beast and a race horse and very capable. I still wish I would have given it the best possible foundation to work on. To what degree would it make things better? I have no way to prove it would. I just wish I would have when the moment was in front of me. The hindsight makes it simple as that.

    It wouldn't surprise me if I'm completely alone in this train of thought. We'll see.

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    If you want to have the machine actually meet the tolerances specified.

    FWIW "Cemented L-hooks" is pretty old style, many have had success with a simple drilled hole, all thread and epoxy.
    How do you go about doing that? There's no room to get my hammer drill into the base when it's in-place and I don't trust I can pre-drill it and get the spacing right. I'm going to be paying by the hour to get the lathe off of my trailer and into place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear624 View Post
    How do you go about doing that? There's no room to get my hammer drill into the base when it's in-place and I don't trust I can pre-drill it and get the spacing right. I'm going to be paying by the hour to get the lathe off of my trailer and into place.
    You get the measurements before unloading it and use a core drill to cut over-size holes in the floor. Mount the L hooks loosely while it's on the crane. lower the machine onto wedges. Build a temporary dam around the outside of the machine. Pour expanding grout into the space between the dam and the machine until it flows all the way under the machine. Once the grout has set, tighten the nuts on the L hooks.

    I've only done this on my surface grinder. The other machines are sat loose on the floor.

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    I used to install machines for a living over here. Big lathes, Hor bores, Vertical Borers, Planers etc. Every machine was anchored to the floor. Most of the smaller machines also. On the big stuff, if it was a new machine , the manufacturers warranty would be void if you didn't install the machine as per their instructions.

    I'm not a fan of grouting under the machine. It can cause problems if and when you have to re-level.

    I liked the old fashioned idiot proof methods but some customers didn't want to spend the money and they insisted on chemical anchors. I used a short length of sweeping brush handle the same size as the holding down holes in the machine base. Dip the flat end in that yellow quick drying marker paint and carefully slide the bit of handle down the holes. Turn it around a bit so you get a nice circle marked on the floor.

    By time you've moved the lathe out of the way the paint will be dry and you'll have your 6 or 8 holes marked out. Get your drill and drill the holes for the floor anchors. Pilot drill the centre of the yellow dots first so your drill won't wander.

    Easy.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    install the machine as per their instructions.
    Here is what the rather successful Lodge & Shipley folks had to say - right in the manual
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails no-bolting.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by 13engines View Post
    Some years back I got a 40 taper Mori Seiki VMC w/pallet changer that weighs I think 15-16K pounds. It also had an installation manual that showed an entire foundation system. Dig a big hole, lay in the sides and isolate from the main slab, tons of concrete, the whole works. Of course it also said how important it was to do so. I was willing physically and financially and wanting to do it but I started asking around with the same question you're using now. I couldn't get a single person either from machine dealers to fellow shop owners to fellow machinists to say they'd ever done it or seen it done. Again... even machine dealers who install this stuff.

    You know what now... five years later? I wish I had. I can feel when trucks go by outside and hit some depression in the road which is about 75 yards away. I see small tell tale bouncing signs in finishes in this mill and others here, and am always amazed at with sensitive equipment you can can see movement at the machine with the tiniest twist of an adjustment foot or simply stomping on the ground near the machine. (I'm in an industrial building)

    This thing is a beast and a race horse and very capable. I still wish I would have given it the best possible foundation to work on. To what degree would it make things better? I have no way to prove it would. I just wish I would have when the moment was in front of me. The hindsight makes it simple as that.

    It wouldn't surprise me if I'm completely alone in this train of thought. We'll see.

    Dave
    You might be in a small minority in the US, over here most things get bolted down.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 13engines View Post
    Some years back I got a 40 taper Mori Seiki VMC w/pallet changer that weighs I think 15-16K pounds. It also had an installation manual that showed an entire foundation system. Dig a big hole, lay in the sides and isolate from the main slab, tons of concrete, the whole works. Of course it also said how important it was to do so. I was willing physically and financially and wanting to do it but I started asking around with the same question you're using now. I couldn't get a single person either from machine dealers to fellow shop owners to fellow machinists to say they'd ever done it or seen it done. Again... even machine dealers who install this stuff.

    You know what now... five years later? I wish I had. I can feel when trucks go by outside and hit some depression in the road which is about 75 yards away. I see small tell tale bouncing signs in finishes in this mill and others here, and am always amazed at with sensitive equipment you can can see movement at the machine with the tiniest twist of an adjustment foot or simply stomping on the ground near the machine. (I'm in an industrial building)

    This thing is a beast and a race horse and very capable. I still wish I would have given it the best possible foundation to work on. To what degree would it make things better? I have no way to prove it would. I just wish I would have when the moment was in front of me. The hindsight makes it simple as that.

    It wouldn't surprise me if I'm completely alone in this train of thought. We'll see.

    Dave
    A toolmaking shop nearby bought two new Mori verticals 15 years or so ago. They were struggling big time to hold the tenths they spent the bucks on those machines for. They pulled the mills out and put a massive foundation in for both machines. It was something like 6 feet of solid concrete 15' x 30'.

    They never had a problem holding those tolerances again.

    On the flip side they were holding like +/- .00015" without that massive foundation. So if you need improve your situation by .00005" or so go ahead and spend that $100K or so on digging, rock and concrete trucks.

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    Here's the instructions for a Graziano SAG 180 lathe: L bolts grouted into 18" thick concrete foundations:graziano-foundations.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails graziano-foundations.jpg  

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    I've used a sharpie with great success to outline the anchor hole. Center punching the hole per Tyrone insures accuracy as well. To be honest I've not used this with equipment the OP is installing. Im fairly certain I could hit my hole centerline without issue.

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    I have never bolted a machine down, always just used leveling screws. Never owned a machine over 7 maybe 8000 lbs and always manual machines. If you are going to bolt it down, be damn sure of where you want it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    A toolmaking shop nearby bought two new Mori verticals 15 years or so ago. They were struggling big time to hold the tenths they spent the bucks on those machines for. They pulled the mills out and put a massive foundation in for both machines. It was something like 6 feet of solid concrete 15' x 30'.
    6 feet thick?!??
    Wow!! That’s incredibly thick!
    100 cubic yards is around 400000 pounds of concrete.

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    Likewise, for the grinder. Machines at work had foundations varying from nothing (Dean Smith & Grace 17", Chiron 5 axis mills etc) to 6 feet (Schiesse borer, Asquith gantry mill, Waldgren & Seigrich lathe etc.)

    Earth moving and concrete really aren't all that expensive compared with machine tools.


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    Out here in Silicon Valley, machine tools in commercial use are legally required to be mechanically secured to their foundation well enough to withstand a half-G acceleration through their CM without breaking free of the foundation.

    (Or at least that's what the civil engineers tell me.)

    I think anchoring is wise.

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    Okay, I've got the typical 3-4" concrete floor. I guess 1/2" anchors are better than sitting there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear624 View Post
    I scored a Sharp 1660C lathe that originally did it's time in a Bosch factory in Atlanta. I hit up Sharp for a manual. It shows in the installation section that it needs to be anchored to the floor with cemented L-hooks.

    Does anyone actually do this?

    One like this? I wouldn't.

    9614300_orig.jpg

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    Note that the reason for using grout is to avoid clamping a machine to an uneven floor. use wedges/shims under the clamping bolts as needed to ensure good machine alignment.

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    I would rather have a machine setting on a poor floor than anchored to it. And if its a good floor a small machine like your lathe doesn't need fastened to the floor for normal work.

    If you are going to rough turn rod journals on crankshafts, where you have several hundred inch*pounds of inbalance, you need to anchor the lathe.

    If you really think you must fasten your lathe down, epoxy female threads in the floor, and use bolts to fasten your lathe. This way when you need to move it to the other corner, you only have to remove the bolts and put your lathe on rollers. If you have studs in the floor, moving the machine is difficult without a adequate sized forklift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpseguin View Post
    6 feet thick?!??
    Wow!! That’s incredibly thick!
    100 cubic yards is around 400000 pounds of concrete.
    I said "something like" because I don't recall exactly how thick, but it was ridiculous in my mind. Next time I'm in there I'll ask again how thick it was, but it probably doesn't matter. I think the point of going so thick in their eyes was they sure as hell weren't doing it again and they didn't want to give Mori an ounce of traction to blame the foundations if the machines still wouldn't pull off what they were bought for.

    Concrete itself is not very expensive. The labor is most of the expense. So, in that sense an extra 10 trucks or so of concrete to fill a hole doesn't make that much difference in the cost of a big foundation.

    The floor in my 20' wide doorway in my shop is 30" thick about 35 feet by 10 feet. When I did that section it was pretty easy work. Just point the shute and fill it up. There's a couple hour timeframe though where you best not fail to remember the concrete is WAY deeper there than the rest of the pour.

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