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    Quote Originally Posted by Mud View Post
    One like this? I wouldn't.

    Attachment 275105
    Yes, exactly like that. My phone/computer are acting up or I would include the picture. I'm also in the process of relocating the electrical panel to a wall-mount so I can access it with the lathe against my shop wall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rand View Post
    Note that the reason for using grout is to avoid clamping a machine to an uneven floor. use wedges/shims under the clamping bolts as needed to ensure good machine alignment.

    It's got some really cool jack-screw type feet that look like leveling will be pretty easy. My floor is pretty smooth and level as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    I would rather have a machine setting on a poor floor than anchored to it. And if its a good floor a small machine like your lathe doesn't need fastened to the floor for normal work.

    If you are going to rough turn rod journals on crankshafts, where you have several hundred inch*pounds of inbalance, you need to anchor the lathe.

    If you really think you must fasten your lathe down, epoxy female threads in the floor, and use bolts to fasten your lathe. This way when you need to move it to the other corner, you only have to remove the bolts and put your lathe on rollers. If you have studs in the floor, moving the machine is difficult without a adequate sized forklift.
    You really think that's a "small"-lathe? I thought it was the smallest I could go and not feel ridiculous doing small parts while still being able to do the bigger work. Meaning, I thought it was the ideal size if I only keep one lathe.

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    Yes, I think that's a "small" lathe. My small lathe is a few hundred pounds lighter, the others much heavier. But it is still a very nice size for an only lathe, depending on one's work. I survived for several years with just one lathe, and it was only slightly smaller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    I said "something like" because I don't recall exactly how thick, but it was ridiculous in my mind.
    I think the rule of thumb was, the concrete block should be at least equal to the mass of the machine and preferably more, up to twice as much if possible. And it needs to be reinforced and isolated from the rest of the floor.

    When the machine is stiffer than the floor, it never made sense to me to bolt it down. Those Sunnex isolation mounts and frequent level-checking make better sense.

    On biggish stuff I did put 3/4" thick steel plates about a foot square under the feet, and siliconed them down to the concrete. Have no way of knowing if that actually helped but it seems like it would spread the load a little better.

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    Somewhat off topic but still a true story.

    I was working at a lab tech in the University of Wisconsin electronics shop many years ago. One of my jobs was using a walker turner floor drill press
    to drill holes in some aluminum channel. When removing the drill from the chuck I accidentally dropped it and it went neatly into the slots in the
    cast iron base.

    I was going to get a wrench so I could unbolt the base to get the drill back, and my boss (who BTW was an old-timer WW2 radar tech) asked me
    "what are you doing" to which I replied unbolting the drill press.....

    No need, he said. "Those are OSHA bolts"

    Turns out OSHA required bolts. But he installed 3/8 in long bolts in the bolt holes, just dropped in. "See, they look to see if the bolts are there,
    but they never check to see what they do." He rolled the drill press on the base and the drill was recovered.

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    Dont be offended by "small". Gbent has some truly massive stuff. It's all about perspective and what does the job for you. Looks like a nice find. Half my stuff sits on Allen wrenches. I have a 100lb bucket of them and use them for spacers, shims and what not. It's a terrible thing to do but they are convenient and I shuffle stuff around alot.

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    Default Do you actually anchor equipment to the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    I think the rule of thumb was, the concrete block should be at least equal to the mass of the machine and preferably more, up to twice as much if possible. And it needs to be reinforced and isolated from the rest of the floor.
    I

    Seems reasonable. Concrete is generally more dense than machines which are full of voids.
    Plate rigidity against deformation/deflection goes up with the cube of the plate thickness, so an 8” thick plate is 8 times stiffer than a 4” thick plate and a 16” thick plate is 64 times stiffer than a 4” thick plate.

    Eventually, when I get the money and time, I’m going to repour my garage floor, probably at least 8+” thick with rebar (I don’t think it has much, if any) and then my old, cracked driveway, maybe 6” thick and definitely with rebar.


    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    I
    When the machine is stiffer than the floor, it never made sense to me to bolt it down. Those Sunnex isolation mounts and frequent level-checking make better sense.
    Yeah, my small CNC lathe has those isolation mounts.
    My VMC has steel support discs with the bolt divot in it, as does my Webb/Whacheon lathe.
    I really liked the hollow leveling screws my old Lodge & Shipley had. I still regret not keeping that lathe!

    I’m in California and I could be convinced that securing machines from skating around and tipping over could be a good thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    I
    On biggish stuff I did put 3/4" thick steel plates about a foot square under the feet, and siliconed them down to the concrete. Have no way of knowing if that actually helped but it seems like it would spread the load a little better.
    For my smaller/lighter machines, (manual mill, Hardinge lathe), I’ve got them sitting on top of 4x6s, which makes picking them and moving them with a pallet jack easier.
    I’ve thought about running lag screws or bolts down through the machine base support holes and screwing into the wood to make it so the 4x6s stay under them.

    I know wood isn’t ideal, but I figure it spreads the load over my concrete

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    Lodge & Shipley hollow jack screws:



    there were 8 on my lathe, 4 on headstock, 4 on the tailstock section.

    From the manual:




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    most experienced field machinist or millwrights who do optical alignment will tell you when a optical level is setup on a 4-6" thick floor if no steel beam directly underneath floor if people walk on the floor it can be seen to go down with the weight of people and goes down considerably more when a fork truck weighing tons goes nearby.
    ....basically if you tried to level machine to .001" and a fork truck nearby makes floor go down over .005" in one spot and twists machine that is considered unstable.
    .
    most machines tend to rock like 4 legged chair with one leg short, it doesnt take much energy for machine to start shifting or rocking if not bolted down
    .
    other thing to be aware of thick concrete is slow to respond to temperature. a relatively thin steel rail bolted to thick concrete when rail is warmer it wants to expand and bows or snakes (multiple bow or curves) between the bolt connections to thick concrete when rail is warmer and no method to allow it to expand and contract. I have seen this temporary condition before and have seen it return to straight when temperature stabilized
    .
    and i have seen steel columns that is outside wall columns expand .030" at 40 feet height above ground compared to inside building columns, from outside wall getting hot in the sun every day. basically machines on a 2nd story can vary in level every day from noon to midnight to noon. slow alignment changes from temperature changes are not always noticed by less experienced people
    .
    some factories were deliberately put in old limestone mines underground or in a hill or mountain as although temperature is about 55F its a much more stable temperature day to day month to month year to year
    .
    i have also seen floor at expansion joint or between floor sections side shift or move independently from each other easily over 0.100" if temperature difference is enough. a machine should be on one solid foundation not span 2 separate floors or foundations. this movement between floor sections can occur every day with temperature changes. usually if one end of machine is moving .030" to 0.100" every day its not considered a stable alignment even if over 40 foot distances

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpseguin View Post
    6 feet thick?!??
    Wow!! That’s incredibly thick!
    100 cubic yards is around 400000 pounds of concrete.
    San Jose, wouldn't do yah a lotta good. I was in the East Bay when the Loma Prieta hit. Pity the Japanese? More than ONE reason for them to offshore to other Asian countries.

    British Isles are more fortunate geo-kinky-fuckery wise. Hard to fight soils geology and tectonic plate grumblings on your budget or mine.

    Page two: Not only hobbyshits, but smallholders in so-called "light industrial" space not only lack the soils geology and local core-drilling and all that follows..

    Their "as found" rented or purchased slab ain't often ten-inch plus. Lucky it is even FIVE inches - half even that for residential shop/garage conversions 'less YOU built it and know better.

    HBX-360-BC has similar spec's as that Graziano. A full 16 inches of slab.

    10EE only asks for three points; have been known to put to sea, bolted to the deck of a warship or tender that is never NOT moving.

    Seems more practical for my slab. HBX gets a similar approach.

    Deaf or no, I can still hear the damned turbos spooling up on a garbidge truck before it gets close enough to matter, just pause for a few minutes.

    Cheap enough. Nothing GENUINELY better is remotely affordable.

    But I ain't a "revenoo" shop running no lights-out CNC critter balls to the walls to pay-off a quatah-million-dollah loan at 2 1/2 cents net margin per half-tenth part spat out, neither.

    FWIW - floor bolts don't mean yah can never move. No hassle in the least. You don't "undo" them with a dental pick and Muriatic Acid. Remove the nuts. overhead lift or apply wedges and toe jacks you have to use in any case. Aside the machine.

    Now.. modern blades in a Milled-Wookie Sawzall flushes the bolts right off in a New York Minute. Clean-up any trip-hazard with an ignorant angle-grinder, flash-patch, and off yah go to mark and bore the new set. Concrete is kinda forgiving that way. Part of why we use so much of it rather than Borosilicate glass or Stellite floor slabs.


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    Quote Originally Posted by gbent View Post
    I would rather have a machine setting on a poor floor than anchored to it. And if its a good floor a small machine like your lathe doesn't need fastened to the floor for normal work.

    If you are going to rough turn rod journals on crankshafts, where you have several hundred inch*pounds of inbalance, you need to anchor the lathe.

    If you really think you must fasten your lathe down, epoxy female threads in the floor, and use bolts to fasten your lathe. This way when you need to move it to the other corner, you only have to remove the bolts and put your lathe on rollers. If you have studs in the floor, moving the machine is difficult without a adequate sized forklift.
    Studs in the floor are no problem if you have a cutting torch or even a decent sized angle grinder with a cut off disc.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    For lighter machines have any of you used Airloc wedge style isolator feet or similar approach?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fear624 View Post
    How do you go about doing that? There's no room to get my hammer drill into the base when it's in-place and I don't trust I can pre-drill it and get the spacing right. I'm going to be paying by the hour to get the lathe off of my trailer and into place.
    You've got to be kidding....

    Your a machinist and can't pre-drill close enough ?

    How big is this lathe again ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpseguin View Post
    6 feet thick?!??
    Wow!! That’s incredibly thick!
    100 cubic yards is around 400000 pounds of concrete.
    I did one machine that went down 13'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnoder View Post
    Here is what the rather successful Lodge & Shipley folks had to say - right in the manual
    John, I agree with you 99% of the time.

    However, many of the machine tools (these days of economy) do not come fully equipped with all they need (iron) for the forces involved.

    I put in (2) foundations of similar machines. One had a huge (13') deep hole
    filled and all kinds of levels, chip conveyor tunnels, etc. the other had a simple small (24" thick) slab.

    At which time I remarked "The deep foundation machine (cost over $1million)
    you only got half the machine, the other half (of the machine) came in a premix (cement) truck"

    I find HAAS machines, albeit low cost, don't get bolted down.

    Bullards, massive as they are, keep all forces contained therein, don't get bolted down, just shimmed.

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    Default Do you actually anchor equipment to the floor?

    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    I did one machine that went down 13'.
    :O
    That’s incredible!
    What was it?
    Must have been one heavy assed machine!

    I wondered about the concrete on the truly huge presses:

    Heavy Press Program - Wikipedia

    The machines that made the Jet Age / Boing Boing

    Apparently the concrete is over 40 feet thick...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpseguin View Post
    :O
    That’s incredible!
    What was it?
    Must have been one heavy assed machine!

    I wondered about the concrete on the truly huge presses:

    Heavy Press Program - Wikipedia

    The machines that made the Jet Age / Boing Boing

    Apparently the concrete is over 40 feet thick...
    The point is, not all the load is shear weight, the machine needs "backed up",
    and strengthened externally from itself, for vibrations and torque it is producing.
    Some machines, like a Bullard, keep all those forces inside, can (and have been)
    set on a dirt floor.

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    Matsuura required a 24" thick double-reinforced slab isolated from the rest of the floor to ensure mechanical accuracy of the machine (MX-520). The riggers moved the machine into (rough) place, marked the locations of the screws, core-drilled slightly large holes, along with an intersecting shallow hole for pouring the epoxy once the machine was in place. They dropped in the all-thread, set the machine in place and finish positioned/rough leveled, then poured the epoxy. Matsuura came the next week after curing to commission the machine. The owners had similar experiences with other machine tools from the tool and die trade, where they had actually sent back machines that would not cut to specifications. The pad for that machine was only $6k.

    On a lathe this would be very useful as you can tweak problems with taper if you are anchored. For instance, I've got a benchtop lathe that would cut about a thousandth of taper per inch, until I stuck 0.014" of shim under one side of the end of the bed. Now it cuts within a few ten thousandths over 6-7 inches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    John, I agree with you 99% of the time.

    However, many of the machine tools (these days of economy) do not come fully equipped with all they need (iron) for the forces involved.

    I put in (2) foundations of similar machines. One had a huge (13') deep hole
    filled and all kinds of levels, chip conveyor tunnels, etc. the other had a simple small (24" thick) slab.

    At which time I remarked "The deep foundation machine (cost over $1million)
    you only got half the machine, the other half (of the machine) came in a premix (cement) truck"

    I find HAAS machines, albeit low cost, don't get bolted down.

    Bullards, massive as they are, keep all forces contained therein, don't get bolted down, just shimmed.
    You've hit the nail on the head matey.

    With modern machines the concrete is replacing the cast iron that used to be there. For an example - " Kearns-Richards " used to make the Wide Bed 50 Horizontal Boring machine. The outer support rails for the saddle etc were mounted on the outer elements of the bed. The bed was all one big casting so you could get away with 3 ft of good foundation.

    To save money and keep up with some competitors they ditched the all in one bed on the later machines. They had totally independent outer supports ( outriggers ) that bolted onto the concrete foundation. All of a sudden you needed 6 ft plus of concrete ! The concrete was replacing cast iron, only the customers ended up paying for the deeper foundation.

    Regards Tyrone.

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