Does price reflect the effort to make anvil/crimp pieces for Amp hand crimper?
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    6,347
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    124
    Likes (Received)
    1237

    Default Does price reflect the effort to make anvil/crimp pieces for Amp hand crimper?

    The price for another similar piece that sits next to this in the link is $150. The crimp tool has two positions.
    So the underside has four anvils for 2 x $90 & 2 x $150. Then the crimp dies on the top of the tool are expensive too.
    That would be $367 piece at the bottom of the page. Damn, I think I saw a price of .50 just for a single little Berg pin.

    Do I need a heat treat oven and other stuff to make these small expensive pieces? Or just accept the idea that they are
    a consumable and just buy them.

    Blocked

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    22,351
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Are you planning on having them calibrated ?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    peekskill, NY
    Posts
    27,271
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6347

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    ...Or just accept the idea that they are
    a consumable and just buy them.
    Not a consumable, just imagine they're amortized over the number of crimps you'll make with them.
    Don't fuck with crimpers, it ends badly. Can you borrow one?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    6,347
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    124
    Likes (Received)
    1237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Not a consumable, just imagine they're amortized over the number of crimps you'll make with them.
    Don't fuck with crimpers, it ends badly. Can you borrow one?
    I bought the crimp tool fron HSC Electronics for something like $45 or $65 a few years ago. And I have done a number of crimps.
    I didn't realize that the terminals I'm using are $0.45 each. So experimentation costs. Maybe I will machine an anvil from some scrap and try to harden it.

    I didn't realize that this crimp tool costs $1450. It costs a lot when something breaks.
    Last edited by rons; 07-26-2021 at 03:53 AM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    6,021
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    214
    Likes (Received)
    2077

    Default

    You said Amp but your link says Amphenol. Last that I knew, they are two different companies. But both make high end crimping tools which are made to tight specs. Not like something you buy in Ace Hardware.

    They are expensive, but they do last for a long time before you need to replace the dies. And even then, you can just buy new dies, not the entire tool. And these tools usually have a ratchet feature plus a dead stop on the dies. This forces the user to apply the correct amount of pressure; not too little and not too much. This ensures a proper crimp. Too little pressure can leave a poor connection and too much can weaken the wire which will then break if there is stress or vibration present. These tools, with the proper dies will produce a 100% proper crimp for tens of thousands of cycles with any operator that uses them.

    The guys doing auto work are going to buy a $25 tool and get get a new one when it wears out. And their work does not go into NASA flight hardware, just in one of millions of cars. If the connection is bad or the wire breaks it is no sweat off their backs.

    I have used both Amp and Amphenol tools and connectors and yes, their tools do cost more.

    As far as making these dies, you don't have the drawings so that would be hit and miss. Just a guess, but I would bet that the tolerances are in the one or two tenths range. I would just buy them. You can try other electronic supply houses: Mouser, Newark, etc. Perhaps even McMaster. But the prices will probably be similar unless you find someone who has old stock and hasn't updated their prices for a while.

  6. Likes Lewie liked this post
  7. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    6,347
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    124
    Likes (Received)
    1237

    Default

    It's actually FCI/Amphenol.

    I looked at a Belden hand crimp tool for $350 for spade connectors. Then I bought one made in Taiwan for $19.95 in a surplus store. Looks exactly the same
    and I bought a few extra dies that didn't cost much for that tool. Usually I stay away from imports unless some American company is ready to stick it to me.
    Besides, those electrical contractors get breaks and discounts. But not the walk-in customer.

    The two anvil dies have been priced at $65.23 and $102.30 at Arrow. Never bought from them before.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    22,351
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilin View Post
    I think that it reflects.
    Spammer building street cred, prepare for a linky shortly.....

  9. Likes Lewie liked this post
  10. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Reddington, N.J., U.S.A.
    Posts
    3,680
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    731
    Likes (Received)
    466

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Spammer building street cred, prepare for a linky shortly.....
    Maybe, but Lilin did post, "There are used machines that will save you a lot of money if you know where to look for them. The problem is that many people refuse to look at exploited machines because they think they are old and... "

    Can a guy or gal who believes that old machines shouldn't be exploited , be all bad?
    Do you want to be exploited when you're old?

  11. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    6,021
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    214
    Likes (Received)
    2077

    Default

    Arrow has been around for a while. I would trust them.

    As for that $19.95 tool from Taiwan, ......... well figure it out for yourself.



    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    It's actually FCI/Amphenol.

    I looked at a Belden hand crimp tool for $350 for spade connectors. Then I bought one made in Taiwan for $19.95 in a surplus store. Looks exactly the same
    and I bought a few extra dies that didn't cost much for that tool. Usually I stay away from imports unless some American company is ready to stick it to me.
    Besides, those electrical contractors get breaks and discounts. But not the walk-in customer.

    The two anvil dies have been priced at $65.23 and $102.30 at Arrow. Never bought from them before.

  12. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    19,434
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2443
    Likes (Received)
    3697

    Default

    The key issue with crimpers is whether or not you can find the dimensions of the final crimp, with tolerances. And if you have a mic that will measure them, which is usually one with blade or pin anvils.

    For a worn set of dies, if you have the dimensions, you can grind the mating faces to produce the correct dimensions, if you are too cheap to buy new, or the new are NLA.

    Then for $19.95 crimpers, you still do not know whether they make the right crimp, unless you measure. At least some of them seem to have been designed by trying out the crimp and adjusting the die dimensions until the wire did not pull out anymore. They may or may not make a crimp with the correct dimensions.

    Then also, the crimper makes a correct crimp on that manufacturer's terminals, of the type available when the crimper was made. The crimper may or may not make a good crimp on some other brand of terminals, even if the crimp dimensions are correct. The crimp depends on the metal thickness of the terminal as well as the starting and final outside dimensions.

    When it matters, use of good crimpers on the correct brand and catalog number of terminal is essential.

    Price?

    You are paying for the somewhat low volume manufacturing, as well as the quality control on making the dies. There is a good bit of "because we can", and "where else yah gonna go?" thrown in, but if you are trying to make the correct termination, you are pretty well stuck. If you deal with ISO quality, or equivalent, then use of matching correct terminals and crimper will be required in the documentation. Again, where yah gonna go?

  13. Likes digger doug, Colt45, sfriedberg liked this post
  14. #11
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    South Central PA
    Posts
    14,632
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2862
    Likes (Received)
    4372

    Default

    I'm located near a few former AMP/Tyco plants, now TE Connectivity. Every job shop in this area seemed to be doing AMP work at one time, there are even shops here that started up just to bid on AMP work. Most all of them made dies for AMP crimpers at one time or another, any shop that could do .0001" grinding was making those dies and everyone wanted that work. Making them required grinders in very good shape, good grinder hands running them, and big comparators capable of inspecting the finished parts because the specs were very demanding. So yes, they are costly to make.
    I have no idea where or how they are made today, this was 30 years ago, but adding the expected markup for the mfg, and for the distributor that price seems about what I'd expect.

  15. Likes digger doug, Colt45, sfriedberg liked this post
  16. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    peekskill, NY
    Posts
    27,271
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6347

    Default

    The term of art we're looking at here is a "gas tight crimp" which means the connection will not degrade over time.

  17. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    6,347
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    124
    Likes (Received)
    1237

    Default

    Looking around at die prices I discovered why they are called dies.... when you look at the prices you want to die.

    The tool has a few 2-56 setscrews that I am going to loosen when my $0.25 wrench arrives tomorrow. The length across
    the flats are 0.035. I ordered four wrenches just in case things don't go good.

    Her is a picture of the tool piston. Just goes into a v-bottom hole like from a drill bit. The fit is a little loose.
    The channel at the bottom of the piston is 0.041 deep and 0.118 wide. A regular black o-ring in the channel and the
    piston does not fit. So I am asking if this channel is just for holding a pocket of grease. No o-ring needed? I thought
    about cutting a length of Teflon and wrapping it around the slot. Could that ruin the intended design?

    Or was something in that slot and removed over time? The piston slips into the hole and stays in position, with no up/down/rotation.
    Instead the entire black piece moves up and down via a level connected to the black piece by a steel pin. If the piston does move
    what is the channel for on the end of the piston.

    dsc_1105_1.jpg

  18. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    wales.uk
    Posts
    1,844
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    412
    Likes (Received)
    432

    Default

    If your crimping a bootlace ferrule on the end of some scabby Ccp cable then anything goes, if it’s in the avionics bay of a jet fighter then the dies matter, plus calibration tear out tensile testing, etc, you can buy cheap amp equivalent dies, they would probably work but at the top end even a roll of cable price would make you cry,
    Mark

  19. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    6,347
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    124
    Likes (Received)
    1237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EPAIII View Post
    Arrow has been around for a while. I would trust them.

    As for that $19.95 tool from Taiwan, ......... well figure it out for yourself.
    I already did that. Compared a $350 Belden to my import for $20. An exact copy. Those electrical contractors get price
    cuts on that $350 but not walk-ins for just one purchase. This is close to mine but mine is made by J.S.T. Corporation
    with a number on the handle "10015-JST"

    Titan 11477 Ratcheting Wire Terminal Crimper Tool for Insulated Terminals, Fixed Jaw Crimper - - Amazon.com

    I would admit that this time I was not faithful to American products. But look at the price difference, jeezus.... Obviously I would not consider a $20 tool
    if it was a piece of junk. I have used a lot pf hand strength on the crimper and it keeps going. Very tough tool. Mine was purchased as a surplus item at a
    low price. But from 10 years ago to today the design has not changed much. Probably a Model-T in the crimper world. I bought a set of dies to crimp Ethernet
    cable when the cheap plastic plugs break.
    Last edited by rons; 07-28-2021 at 06:00 AM.

  20. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    22,351
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    I already did that. Compared a $350 Belden to my import for $20. An exact copy. Those electrical contractors get price
    cuts on that $350 but not walk-ins for just one purchase. This is close to mine but mine is made by J.S.T. Corporation
    with a number on the handle "10015-JST"

    Titan 11477 Ratcheting Wire Terminal Crimper Tool for Insulated Terminals, Fixed Jaw Crimper - - Amazon.com

    I would admit that this time I was not faithful to American products. But look at the price difference, jeezus.... Obviously I would not consider a $20 tool
    if it was a piece of junk. I have used a lot pf hand strength on the crimper and it keeps going. Very tough tool.
    That's' not the point, "I can't break it so it must be good" is not a qualification.

    Crimping is an exact science. You don't "mash the hell out of the connector".
    Too much crimp is just as bad as not enough crimp.

  21. Likes JST liked this post
  22. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,800
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    378
    Likes (Received)
    2019

    Default

    [QUOTE=Mud;Most all of them made dies for AMP crimpers at one time or another, any shop that could do .0001" grinding was making those dies and everyone wanted that work. .[/QUOTE]

    Oke
    You have a 0.001 accurate crimp die
    Now you need a 0.001mm accurate cable 0.001mm accurate terminal with a 0.001mm accurate galvanic coating
    And then you have to do it all in a climate controled area
    For NASA yes perhaps
    But I would not trust any terminal that requiers this accuracy in my shop to perform propperly

    Peter

  23. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    19,434
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2443
    Likes (Received)
    3697

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Oke
    You have a 0.001 accurate crimp die
    Now you need a 0.001mm accurate cable 0.001mm accurate terminal with a 0.001mm accurate galvanic coating
    And then you have to do it all in a climate controled area
    For NASA yes perhaps
    But I would not trust any terminal that requiers this accuracy in my shop to perform propperly

    Peter

    Well, not quite....... Why would you think that?

    There are tolerances on everything. Wire, crimpers, wire, terminal material, coatings, etc. But, most crimper dies close on ground surfaces of the opposing die. THAT can be controlled well.

    Is there a difference between pieces of wire? Sure, but there are tolerances, and they are not huge. Is there tolerance on thickness of and hardness of sheet terminal material? Sure. Is there a range of crimp dimensions that is acceptable? Absolutely.

    Did the Terminal manufacturer specify or know those things to the tolerance they require? Ummmmm.... YES THEY DID.

    Do you need the wire and other things you mentioned to be to the tolerances you "specified"? NO.

    In these cases the tolerance of the die is specifically so that it ends up accurately at the small end of the tolerance when the crimp is made on the terminal and wire that are at the worst end of their tolerances.

    That way, they know that it will wear larger, and give reasonable life before wearing to be too large to make a reliable crimp.

  24. Likes digger doug liked this post
  25. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    6,021
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    214
    Likes (Received)
    2077

    Default

    I am sorry, I thought you were asking. You are obviously an expert on crimping and the tools involved so I must yield to your superior knowledge.



    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    I already did that. Compared a $350 Belden to my import for $20. An exact copy. Those electrical contractors get price
    cuts on that $350 but not walk-ins for just one purchase. This is close to mine but mine is made by J.S.T. Corporation
    with a number on the handle "10015-JST"

    Titan 11477 Ratcheting Wire Terminal Crimper Tool for Insulated Terminals, Fixed Jaw Crimper - - Amazon.com

    I would admit that this time I was not faithful to American products. But look at the price difference, jeezus.... Obviously I would not consider a $20 tool
    if it was a piece of junk. I have used a lot pf hand strength on the crimper and it keeps going. Very tough tool. Mine was purchased as a surplus item at a
    low price. But from 10 years ago to today the design has not changed much. Probably a Model-T in the crimper world. I bought a set of dies to crimp Ethernet
    cable when the cheap plastic plugs break.

  26. Likes digger doug liked this post
  27. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    6,347
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    124
    Likes (Received)
    1237

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    That's' not the point, "I can't break it so it must be good" is not a qualification.

    Crimping is an exact science. You don't "mash the hell out of the connector".
    Too much crimp is just as bad as not enough crimp.
    The sturdiness of the crimp tool is one of the points. "Points" means a plural. The dies and crimp height are some points too.
    The days of "mash down and solder" are over.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •