Drawer full of gear hobs - What machines do these fit ? (photo)

Milacron · Aug 1, 2012

Most of these have a tapered hole. Measured at small opening, three different sizes... aprox .460", .520", and .645". The company that had these had Mikron and Barber Colman* hobs. I bought one of the Mikron hobs, but mine seems to use 8mm straight hole only hobs (have a drawer full of those too but need to keep them with the hob).

There were a few Mikron hobbing machines larger than mine that might have used these, but I suspect these were for the Barber Colmans....but posting this to see if any of you in the know can confirm.

Of the Barber Colmans, they had some no. 1 1/2 and no. 3 models. Or was there a standard arbor such that these fit other makes as well ?

The hob with a string and paper tag attached has a note that it cost $500....could they really have cost that much ? Bottom line is I should sell all these as the only hobbing machine I have is the Mikron that uses much smaller hobs. They had 4 or more tiny table top hobbers which I guess were the BC 1-1/2 models...but with Google image search I can't find a single example that looks like them, so not sure what to think. These were at Biedermann Industries** in Westminster, SC and the old auction flyer only show a photo of the BC 3 models.

Relevant past PM thread here- http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/will-barber-colman-3-cut-worm-gears-83097/
===========

*Is it Colman or Coleman ?
**Auction flyer...see Day Two.. http://www.cia-auction.com/auctiondata/images/news/Biedermann_Auction.pdf

David Utidjian · Aug 1, 2012

I would send a PM to PM member 10 fingers. There are most likely other members that can help but I know he knows this stuff inside and out.

-DU-

Zahnrad Kopf · Aug 1, 2012

Milacron said:
The hob with a string and paper tag attached has a note that it cost $500....could they really have cost that much ? Bottom line is I should sell all these as the only hobbing machine I have is the Mikron that uses much smaller hobs. They had 4 or more tiny table top hobbers which I guess were the BC 1-1/2 models...but with Google image search I can't find a single example that looks like them, so not sure what to think.
<snip>

*Is it Colman or Coleman ?
*Auction flyer...see Day Two.. http://www.cia-auction.com/auctiondata/images/news/Biedermann_Auction.pdf

It's Barber Colman.

Yes, there is a standard BC taper shaft for those hobs.
Most machines can/could be had with them, but it's been more common for me to come across straight shafts these days.
Yes, they could have cost $500, new, when bought. Still can. Used ones are not commonly that much. *Commonly*...
A lot depends on the hob, its pitch, it's class, its condition, etc...

Custom hobs typically run $600 - $1500
Standard, Class AA hobs typically run $450 - $750
Both are my experience, and we buy a lot of hobs.
Used hobs typically run $25 - $150 depending on the same factors.
Ash will rent them for $75.

Hope that helps.

Milacron · Aug 1, 2012

Zahnrad Kopf said:
It's Barber Colman.

Yes, there is a standard BC taper shaft for those hobs.
Most machines can/could be had with them, but it's been more common for me to come across straight shafts these days.
Yes, they could have cost $500, new, when bought. Still can. Used ones are not commonly that much. *Commonly*...
A lot depends on the hob, its pitch, it's class, its condition, etc...

Custom hobs typically run $600 - $1500
Standard, Class AA hobs typically run $450 - $750
Both are my experience, and we buy a lot of hobs.
Used hobs typically run $25 - $150 depending on the same factors.
Ash will rent them for $75.

Do you think anyone would interested in the whole lot if price right, or would users typically only need a few sizes ? Some seem to be brand new never used, many are sharpened still in protective coating. And note some of the smaller ones are stacked 2 or 3 high on the same post, so there are more in number than at first glance. I could pull a Mike Kandu and offer each one seperately on eBay for $400 I suppose but suspect most would be tossed in my casket

Still, fascinating to think there could be a $50,000 original investment sitting in that drawer...and that's just one drawer...there are more....not to mention all the change gears, arbors and other accessories. These guys had 18 hobbing machines at that one location, and this is the Vidmar cabinet for all of them.

Zahnrad Kopf · Aug 1, 2012

Milacron said:
Do you think anyone would interested in the whole lot if price right, or would users typically only need a few sizes ?

It really depends on the shop, D.
MOST places that I know of have standard sizes that they run all the time, like contract work. So, they usually only stock those sizes.

We only do prototyping, so the needs change more than whims of a room full of menopausal women.
I could take a picture and show you 6 drawers of a Lista, neatly organized and labelled, of hobs.
Even just had a 29DP hob made for us... Also recently had to buy a Circular Pitch hob, too... haven't used one of THOSE in YEARS...

There's a guy with a fairly good internet bulletin board that has a "For Sale" section that's pretty good... you might have heard of it...
http://www.practicalmachinist.com

I could pull a Mike Kandu and offer each one seperately on eBay for $400 I suppose but suspect most would be tossed in my casket

Might be good fun throwing a nicely sharpened hob at him... Sure to get your pound of flesh in the process...

10 fingers · Aug 1, 2012

Appear to be all fine pitch hobs typical of those used on a BC 1-1/2. As mentioned, value could range widely. If common DP & module, 20 deg PA, finishing hobs, should be able to find a home for them. If pre grind or pre shave, demand drops greatly. May get lucky and discover some are carbide which is a huge bonus.
I've been in the same boat buying entire tool inventories. Discovered the best solution is list on EBay at a $0.99 start price. Post legible photos of the hob data etched on the end and edge wear/remaining life. Enough of us shopping there, the tools will sell for what they're worth. Again, clear photos make a huge difference.
I've tried doing business online with mikekandu. Quickly learned I was wasting my time.

Milacron · Aug 1, 2012

10 fingers said:
Appear to be all fine pitch hobs typical of those used on a BC 1-1/2.

Even the ones with the largest bore and OD ? Re fine pitch, these guys made mechanical instruments...sort of like dial indicators except for other purposes....so yeah, fine pitch gears in those instruments. Business was hurt somewhat by all the electronic alternatives.

The Mikron I bought was model A21/2, made in 1980. Physically small machine but still larger than the BC 1-1/2 and yet uses tiny hobs...8mm bore, perhaps "quarter" size OD at most....therefore a little surprising a BC 1-1/2 might use those relatively large hobs.

Mud · Aug 1, 2012

FWIW I once sold Ash Gear a large lot of unwanted gear shaper cutters, this was pre-Ebay and got ~$40 each which was pretty good at the time. Shaper cutters and hobs bring about the same prices. I'd be surprised if they weren't interested in those hobs.

If I wanted to maximise the $ return at minimum effort I'd list them all by description in one ebay buy it now auction auction and state that I was selling ONE hob at $100 or best offer, and accept offers for more than one or the whole lot and see what response I got. There are relatively few hobs listed on Ebay at any one time and gear tooling gets a lot of interest when it is listed. Photos of the markings on each hob are the best description of the geometry for prospective buyers, some can be pretty cryptic.

Screwmachine · Aug 1, 2012

Milacron said:
Even the ones with the largest bore and OD ? Re fine pitch, these guys made mechanical instruments...sort of like dial indicators except for other purposes....so yeah, fine pitch gears in those instruments. Business was hurt somewhat by all the electronic alternatives.

The Mikron I bought was model A21/2, made in 1980. Physically small machine but still larger than the BC 1-1/2 and yet uses tiny hobs...8mm bore, perhaps "quarter" size OD at most....therefore a little surprising a BC 1-1/2 might use those relatively large hobs.

I have that machine's ancestor. A21/0, 1962, purchase price 20,000 Swiss Francs. It came out of Tesa, is apparently the first machine from the production.

Why on earth did you buy that little bugger?

Milacron · Aug 1, 2012

Screwmachine said:
I have that machine's ancestor. A21/0, 1962, purchase price 20,000 Swiss Francs. It came out of Tesa, is apparently the first machine from the production.

Why on earth did you buy that little bugger?

Because it was the newest, lowest hour and cleanest hobbing machine out of the 35+ hobs the company owned (two locations). It is pictured on the front page of the auction flyer top left. The funny part is to my great annoyance I discovered after I bought it that it had almost no change gears with it and someone else got the cabinet in Raleigh that had all the gears for that location*.

So I went to the second auction the next day in SC and luckily the few Mikron's they had there used the same gears and I got the motherload of change gears pretty cheap. Found out later the reason the buyer of the Mikrons in SC didn't even bid on the change gears was because the high bidder was Reliable out in CA bidding on Bidspotter and they were no doubt too unfamiliar with the machines to even know the gears were needed. So I got the whole shebang of gears for $25 !!!! (except for one...see below)

===========

*As an aside, the high bidder for the gear cabinet in Raleigh told me "no problem, once I sort thru them you can have what you need cheap, maybe even free" As an experienced auction person, I know to *never* believe that sort of thing uttered in the heat of the moment at an auction. Maybe it will happen, but most likely it won't. Sure enough, after many emails over months of time the guy was totally FOS....never got the one gear that was missing that he almost certainly had in duplicates. Luckily the one missing gear is not an important one and probably never needed anyway but still pissed me off he wouldn't even look with $ offered.

Screwmachine · Aug 1, 2012

Milacron said:
*As an aside, the high bidder for the gear cabinet in Raleigh told me "no problem, once I sort thru them you can have what you need cheap, maybe even free" As an experienced auction person, I know to *never* believe that sort of thing uttered in the heat of the moment at an auction. Maybe it will happen, but most likely it won't. Sure enough, after many emails over months of time the guy was totally FOS....never got the one gear that was missing that he almost certainly had in duplicates. Luckily the one missing gear is not an important one and probably never needed anyway but still pissed me off he wouldn't even look with $ offered.

What tooth count do you need? I may have it.

Milacron · Aug 1, 2012

Screwmachine said:
What tooth count do you need? I may have it.

Been so many months since I've thought about this now I can't remember....will investigate tomorrow.

Milacron · Aug 2, 2012

Screwmachine said:
What tooth count do you need? I may have it.

Ah, found it....pm sent...

As an aside, I just now noticed they must have had more hobbers at their Raleigh location than I remembered. Earlier in this thread I said they had about 35 machines, but according to the front of the auction flyer they had 51 !

kustomizingkid · Aug 2, 2012

You have a hobbing machine, just make your own gear

Milacron · Aug 3, 2012

So, what are these....tailstocks for the Mikron ?

And these ??

The actual Mikron A21/2

jCandlish · Aug 3, 2012

Apparently there was a Mikron 102 at that auction. Why did you go for the model 21 instead???

edit: Whoops, read the flyer wrongly.

Milacron · Aug 3, 2012

<jbc> said:
Apparently there was a Mikron 102 at that auction. Why did you go for the model 21 instead???

Over a year later I can't remember. Probably because the 102 was much older and uglier...or price went higher...just don't know at this point.

WILLEO6709 · Aug 3, 2012

so I have a part that may be actually right sized for that micron hobbing machine... it still for sale?

Zahnrad Kopf · Aug 3, 2012

WILLEO6709 said:
so I have a part that may be actually right sized for that micron hobbing machine... it still for sale?

You don't wanna do that... it's a very messy business, full of pitfalls and danger.... noone in their right minds wants to make gears these days...

WILLEO6709 · Aug 4, 2012

Zahnrad Kopf said:
You don't wanna do that... it's a very messy business, full of pitfalls and danger.... noone in their right minds wants to make gears these days...

who said I was making gears? I just have a couple of parts that ain't gears that are hobbable.

Drawer full of gear hobs - What machines do these fit ? (photo)

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