Drills, Need advice on anything newer than uncoated HSS/CO
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    Default Drills, Need advice on anything newer than uncoated HSS/CO

    I have a new customer that will be loading me up with various different shaft collars. AL 2024 ,1215 steel, and 303 SS.

    My Brown and Sharpe screw machines were made to run HSS at 118* points. I have these parts to machine and it is really just drilling holes all day long. the 1215 I would normally use a 118* HssCo. I am looking at the different coatings and combinations of drills and I am wondering if there is something better worth trying.

    I believe carbide tipped drills would be best for my machines... https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/71213326
    for the steel and 303.

    I wanted to try this cobalt/tin drill https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/41857392


    I do not believe solid carbide would be wise for my machines. They do have some with 118* points though.

    I can run carbide cutoff blades on these jobs due to them not going to the center of the part. I can run the higher speeds needed for carbide if all the tools I am using are carbide (front/back x slide, turret). These parts are perfect to try and use some newer improved drills and try to get some better cycle times.

    Solid carbide is usually a no no because they can chatter easily and shatter.

    I usually sharpen my drills and re use them quite a bit. Once any coatings get ground off the cutting edge they are essentially uncoated hss. Do they last significantly longer with the coating that I wont have to worry about sharpening them often? I am reaming a lot of these holes too, so I can let the drill wear out a little more than normal.

    Any advice is greatly appreciated.

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    Tough question to answer without more information.
    What diameter holes, what tolerance, what depth?
    What are the machine limitations, rigidity, cutting fluid options?
    These differing materials will require differing drill geometries, coating and materials.

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    The Guhring you linked is a solid choice. You can email them and ask what they recommend. I've done that a few times in the past and they usually respond pretty quickly. Just make sure to give them enough information.
    Same with OSG, they make really good HSS drills also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E189552 View Post
    Tough question to answer without more information.
    What diameter holes, what tolerance, what depth?
    What are the machine limitations, rigidity, cutting fluid options?
    These differing materials will require differing drill geometries, coating and materials.
    To be fair, the drills he linked should give a pretty good idea of the diameters and depths he's working with. Plus he stated they're shaft collars on a B&S screw machines which hints at the needed tolerance and the rigidity/capability of the machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    The Guhring you linked is a solid choice. You can email them and ask what they recommend. I've done that a few times in the past and they usually respond pretty quickly. Just make sure to give them enough information.
    Same with OSG, they make really good HSS drills also.
    Usually when I get recommendations they are based on very rigid cnc machines with coolant not cutting oil.

    I see a lot of the TIN coated cobalt ghuring drills for not much more money than uncoated in the smaller diameters. I just got a delivery of .750" round 1215. Hole is .235" -.000 / +.005. 5000 parts. I think this would be a decent run to try an improved drill.

    I already know I can run 1 hss drill throughout the whole job without sharpening. I would like to see if I can speed it up a set of gears and run an upgraded coated drill. Might save me half a day on the job. Carbide tipped drill would prob save me a full day up to 2 days on the job.

    This is on a short run job too. Some of these jobs will run for 4-6 weeks straight. I think I had a 303 SS one have a 10 wk machine time with uncoated HSS (that one is 1.00" O.D. with a .505" hole, .438" wide)

    I guess I will have to report back my data.

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    I mean... How "un-rigid" are your screw machines? I've never seen one in real life. But my recommendation would be to pick a couple drills from here: Series Display - M.A. Ford And speed things up, and see how they hold up. The drills are cheap, and work fantastically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    I mean... How "un-rigid" are your screw machines? I've never seen one in real life. But my recommendation would be to pick a couple drills from here: Series Display - M.A. Ford And speed things up, and see how they hold up. The drills are cheap, and work fantastically.
    One of the problems with the cam automatics is when a part gets jammed in the x-slide or some chips or a part fall and jam into a gear/ trip dog.

    the slides will shutter back and forth as the machine tries to keep spinning forward (backlash). They can happen so quick sometimes and its hard to get to the machine in time to save it. As the drills slam into the material they can chip and break easily.

    Not a big problem, but when it does happen I would rather break a $5 HSS drill than a $100-150 carbide drill.

    I kind of want to try the Kenna GoDrills that Titan pushes.

    Those M.A. Ford ones I have seen in house before. My dad has gotten them in small diameters for SS jobs that need better finishes. I wouldnt hesitate to try one of these.
    Last edited by DanASM; 03-19-2021 at 05:36 PM.

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    IMO&E Guhring drills are good ........I've bought several hundred of the Ebay cheapies (NOS etc etc) and never had a duff one.

    So if they're cheap enough you could change them out at a set time and not worry too much about the lower hole count.

    Just saying YMMV

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    Quote Originally Posted by Limy Sami View Post
    IMO&E Guhring drills are good ........I've bought several hundred of the Ebay cheapies (NOS etc etc) and never had a duff one.

    So if they're cheap enough you could change them out at a set time and not worry too much about the lower hole count.

    Just saying YMMV
    Guhring 118* split point drills are pretty much standard use in my shop. They always work on everything my machines run. I have great data on these tools and can make them last a long time. I am trying to increase production even if it is only by a little bit. These long running jobs could shave 1-2 weeks off of some of them. That saves on the payroll and overhead.

    Sometimes it is better to just run them slow as it allows me to run more machines at the same time. I dont really have the time to be running everything slower anymore. I gotta get the most out of the time I have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanASM View Post
    One of the problems with the cam automatics is when a part gets jammed in the x-slide or some chips or a part fall and jam into a gear/ trip dog.

    the slides will shutter back and forth as the machine tries to keep spinning forward (backlash). They can happen so quick sometimes and its hard to get to the machine in time to save it. As the drills slam into the material they can chip and break easily.

    Not a big problem, but when it does happen I would rather break a $5 HSS drill than a $100-150 carbide drill.

    I kind of want to try the Kenna GoDrills that Titan pushes.

    Those M.A. Ford ones I have seen in house before. My dad has gotten them in small diameters for SS jobs that need better finishes. I wouldnt hesitate to try one of these.

    Well, I've never gotten to run a drill as big as 1/2" (most of my stock is under 1/4") from MAFord, but I know their 305 series, which are about 1/4" and under all run me about $12 each...

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    Quote Originally Posted by TeachMePlease View Post
    Well, I've never gotten to run a drill as big as 1/2" (most of my stock is under 1/4") from MAFord, but I know their 305 series, which are about 1/4" and under all run me about $12 each...
    Here is the drill for the first part. 1215 steel .235 +.005 hole (reamed)

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/93322725 (carbide) 50 bucks

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/55077366 (Tin Cobalt) 10 bucks

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/01293406 (HSS, gen purpose) 4 bucks


    This is one of the smaller parts. The bigger ones have up to a 1.00" hole. The above pricing rises proportionally as the drills get bigger in size.

    If I am going to get the chance to try them out, now would be the time. When it wont hurt the pocket too bad if it fails.

    If this was a one time 2500 part order, I would only buy the HSS drill above. I use those drills often on shorter running free machining grades. Never had any problems. Just want to get with the times and try to make improvements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanASM View Post
    Here is the drill for the first part. 1215 steel .235 +.005 hole (reamed)

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/93322725 (carbide) 50 bucks

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/55077366 (Tin Cobalt) 10 bucks

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/01293406 (HSS, gen purpose) 4 bucks


    This is one of the smaller parts. The bigger ones have up to a 1.00" hole. The above pricing rises proportionally as the drills get bigger in size.

    If I am going to get the chance to try them out, now would be the time. When it wont hurt the pocket too bad if it fails.

    If this was a one time 2500 part order, I would only buy the HSS drill above. I use those drills often on shorter running free machining grades. Never had any problems. Just want to get with the times and try to make improvements.
    Honestly, at that price, I'd probably just run the Guhring and be done with it.

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    Default 8% Cobalt HSS

    Quote Originally Posted by DanASM View Post
    Here is the drill for the first part. 1215 steel .235 +.005 hole (reamed)

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/93322725 (carbide) 50 bucks

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/55077366 (Tin Cobalt) 10 bucks

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/01293406 (HSS, gen purpose) 4 bucks


    This is one of the smaller parts. The bigger ones have up to a 1.00" hole. The above pricing rises proportionally as the drills get bigger in size.

    If I am going to get the chance to try them out, now would be the time. When it wont hurt the pocket too bad if it fails.

    If this was a one time 2500 part order, I would only buy the HSS drill above. I use those drills often on shorter running free machining grades. Never had any problems. Just want to get with the times and try to make improvements.


    I've had excellent luck with 8% cobalt bits that have a 135 degree split point. They don't chip out easily, and are a different alloy of HSS so there's no coating to "wear off".

    In addition, they'll hold hardness up to some pretty high temperatures (past 800f) and can readily be resharpened by hand or in a bit grinder. I've smoked some larger (1/2") cobalt bits, and have resharpened past the heat affected area with no adverse effects.

    I've used the cheapest of the cheap (harbor freight) to job-shop grade American bits. They all seem to work well, just make sure they are cobalt alloy bits. Might be worth a try before shelling out some $$ for specialty carbide/indexable/etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanASM View Post
    Here is the drill for the first part. 1215 steel .235 +.005 hole (reamed)

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/93322725 (carbide) 50 bucks
    Same size, carbide = $22 list.
    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/66705427

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    Don't know if it is too late, but I will throw in 2 more contenders for you to try out.

    Dormer Pramet's ADX and OSG's Exo Gold line.

    I have used both and they hold up great. The Exo drills tend to be more expensive, though in smaller sizes they are usually very close in price.

    ADX HSS/HSS-E High Performance Drills

    OSG | Taps | End Mills | Drills | Indexable | Composite Tooling | Diamond Coating | Die Products. EX-GOLD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    I saw that drill but for some reason I skipped over it. Maybe I liked the slower spiral flutes on the M.A. Ford. I will most likely go with this one due to the price.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    Don't know if it is too late, but I will throw in 2 more contenders for you to try out.

    Dormer Pramet's ADX and OSG's Exo Gold line.

    I have used both and they hold up great. The Exo drills tend to be more expensive, though in smaller sizes they are usually very close in price.

    ADX HSS/HSS-E High Performance Drills

    OSG | Taps | End Mills | Drills | Indexable | Composite Tooling | Diamond Coating | Die Products. EX-GOLD
    These look good. If the carbide doesnt work out I definitely want to go with a good coated cobalt. I see some of the 303 jobs show a 45-55 SFM for the drills. I need to improve on those ones for sure.

    I have not ordered anything yet. I have about a week and a half before I need to order them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanASM View Post
    ....
    I usually sharpen my drills and re use them quite a bit. Once any coatings get ground off the cutting edge they are essentially uncoated hss. ....
    .
    Confused here. You are regrinding flutes or gash?
    That coating on the tip of the drill or flank of any insert does very very little if geometry correct.
    As simple regrind on a drill still leaves the coated chip sliding face which is why the coat is there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Confused here. You are regrinding flutes or gash?
    That coating on the tip of the drill or flank of any insert does very very little if geometry correct.
    As simple regrind on a drill still leaves the coated chip sliding face which is why the coat is there.
    This makes sense to me. I just grind away the ends until the bugs or BUE are ground away. Still maintaining Geometry when the drill is big enough to do it.

    I saw some old data from like 1979 on a .500 HSS jobber in 4140. The cutting edge got built up at .005 fpr pretty easily, but the BUE ended up protecting the cutting edge and making the drill last a lot longer.

    I was thinking that sharpening the coated drills wouldnt matter at all but most of what I read online was that grinding them would take away the benefits of the coatings. It didnt make sense to me then. Still doesnt now.

    The real question I have is they say you can go up to 25% faster with coated cobalt than with plain HSS. I dont have enough experience with it but the little I do have tells me they just last a little longer. I havent been able to speed up my machines for them yet. Not enough experience.

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    So I just got some of the custom tooling in this week and yesterday I ordered some drills.

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/55077366 118* (for the Al job)

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/09591918 130* (For the Steel)

    https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/55447197 Solid Carbide Reamer (for both jobs)

    I really like the way the OSG drill looks. Looks like something I would like to make my shop standard for steels.

    I wont get to run these until next week. I will post results when done.

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    I wonder if the coating makes much difference under flood cooling. I can see where it would make a huge difference dry but when everything is kept cool and lubricated it may not help that much.


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