DVF5000 vs. MX330 - Or Other 5 Axis Pallet Solutions

luckykid · Mar 31, 2020

We are looking to get a 5th axis with a pallet pool and I was wondering how people would compare the Doosan DVF5000 with the Matsuura MX330. We are an AS9100 shop with a lot of high mix low volume work and we run parts from nearly every industry. Most parts are small under 10" in the longest dimension. We cut anything from Inconel to Delrin and everything in between.

We are moving to 24/7 operation and the plan would be to have this machine loaded up and running non-stop. Right now we try to have operators watching 2-3 mills with with one or two lathes bar feeding which would average just above 3 spindles turning per operator. I am hoping this machine can help with that by allowing a long cycle of unattended run time.

The idea is to program off line and load in different setups while the machine is running. I want to set it up so that work offsets can be automatically probed when loading in a new pallet/fixture so that once the operator loads up the new pallet, there will be no manual intervention needed. Since we have a lot of smaller runs (1-20pcs) we will be changing fixtures daily as we load in jobs.

Any thoughts on these two machines or any other machine that would be better suited would be very much appreciated. We would like to stay around or under $500,000 all in.

boosted · Mar 31, 2020

Almost everybody makes a 5 axis machine with a stand alone pallet pool, and for 500k you should have a ton of options. Personally (and this is subjective) I wouldn't consider either of those machines, as they both look and feel like 5 axis machines from 20 years ago. With that budget I would forget the Korean builders, and probably only seriously consider a premium Japanese or European brand. My short list would be DMG MORI (not the DMU50), Mazak, Makino, Hermle, or Mikron.

Your search should be primarily driven by these two questions.

1- Are there any explicit performance requirements (size, spindle, etc...) that would narrow the field?
2- Who do you like to do business with?

ChipSplitter · Mar 31, 2020

All I will say is be sure the Koolaid you drink comes with good support.
IOW, you don't want to spend $500K and 6 months later be out on a limb because of technical issues, parts availability, etc.

luckykid · Mar 31, 2020

boosted said:
Almost everybody makes a 5 axis machine with a stand alone pallet pool, and for 500k you should have a ton of options. Personally (and this is subjective) I wouldn't consider either of those machines, as they both look and feel like 5 axis machines from 20 years ago. With that budget I would forget the Korean builders, and probably only seriously consider a premium Japanese or European brand. My short list would be DMG MORI (not the DMU50), Mazak, Makino, Hermle, or Mikron.

Your search should be primarily driven by these two questions.

1- Are there any explicit performance requirements (size, spindle, etc...) that would narrow the field?
2- Who do you like to do business with?

We would be good with a CAT40 or HSK, we currently use a VF3SS and VF4SS with a TRTY210 and a TRT160 and it works well. I will take a look a the other models, I assume Mazak and Hermle would be out of budget.

boosted · Mar 31, 2020

Mazak definitely won't be out of the budget. Hermle would probably be the biggest stretch, but you might be surprised at the affordability of their smaller machines. All of the big builders make machines at a few different price points.

As ChipSplitter says, service is critical. That's kinda what I was getting at with point #2. Around here Mazak is a non-starter because their service is abysmal.

luckykid · Apr 1, 2020

boosted said:
Mazak definitely won't be out of the budget. Hermle would probably be the biggest stretch, but you might be surprised at the affordability of their smaller machines. All of the big builders make machines at a few different price points.

As ChipSplitter says, service is critical. That's kinda what I was getting at with point #2. Around here Mazak is a non-starter because their service is abysmal.

I've emailed Mazak and Hermle. I will be reaching out to DMG Mori and Makino as well.

ChipSplitter · Apr 1, 2020

Take a look at Okuma and Toyoda, too. They both have a pretty nice horizontal. Around here it seems they have better service and support than DMG or Makino. I do hear good things about Mazak and Hermle, though. :typing:

ChipSplitter · Apr 1, 2020

Another thing I forgot to ask; are you looking for a horizontal or vertical?

luckykid · Apr 1, 2020

ChipSplitter said:
Another thing I forgot to ask; are you looking for a horizontal or vertical?

I think a vertical since we do such small quantities, but to be frank, I don't know a whole lot about the industry and technologies.

ChipSplitter · Apr 1, 2020

luckykid said:
I think a vertical since we do such small quantities, but to be frank, I don't know a whole lot about the industry and technologies.

If you can afford it, go horizontal. They usually don't cost that much more than a full 5-axis machine and are way more productive and designed for high MRR.

luckykid · Apr 1, 2020

ChipSplitter said:
If you can afford it, go horizontal. They usually don't cost that much more than a full 5-axis machine and are way more productive and designed for high MRR.

Is there certain types of horizontals that would allow for 5 sided operations vs. just 3 sides like a normal horizontal. That is where we are seeing the majority of the benefits from the trunions we have now.

empower · Apr 1, 2020

boosted said:
Almost everybody makes a 5 axis machine with a stand alone pallet pool, and for 500k you should have a ton of options. Personally (and this is subjective) I wouldn't consider either of those machines, as they both look and feel like 5 axis machines from 20 years ago. With that budget I would forget the Korean builders, and probably only seriously consider a premium Japanese or European brand. My short list would be DMG MORI (not the DMU50), Mazak, Makino, Hermle, or Mikron.

Your search should be primarily driven by these two questions.

1- Are there any explicit performance requirements (size, spindle, etc...) that would narrow the field?
2- Who do you like to do business with?

there is NOTHING 20 year old about the new matsuuras. they are easily one of the premium japanese brands. i'd go matsuura 1000x over any POS DMG product.
our LX160 is 8 years old but still runs like a clock. nothing but good experience with the machine itself and both selway and matsuura in support. which is a night and day difference with my DMG experience. Matsuura HANDS DOWN.

empower · Apr 1, 2020

boosted said:
Mazak definitely won't be out of the budget. Hermle would probably be the biggest stretch, but you might be surprised at the affordability of their smaller machines. All of the big builders make machines at a few different price points.

As ChipSplitter says, service is critical. That's kinda what I was getting at with point #2. Around here Mazak is a non-starter because their service is abysmal.

IIRC hermle doesnt offer much in the automation/pallet pool department. matsuura is one of the market leaders when it comes to that, their integration if flawless

empower · Apr 1, 2020

luckykid said:
Is there certain types of horizontals that would allow for 5 sided operations vs. just 3 sides like a normal horizontal. That is where we are seeing the majority of the benefits from the trunions we have now.

the only horizontal 5 axis machine worth a damn is grob, be prepared to spend ~750k with a pallet system. expensive but worth every penny.

luckykid · Apr 1, 2020

empwoer said:
IIRC hermle doesnt offer much in the automation/pallet pool department. matsuura is one of the market leaders when it comes to that, their integration if flawless

I spoke with Hermle, they do but its $630K, I don't think we need that level of a machine with what the MX330 and DVF5000 come in at price-wise.

boosted · Apr 1, 2020

@empower

Like I said; my feelings about machines being old is subjective. Also, old doesn't necessarily mean bad. The DMG MORI NMV platform is freaking awesome, but they are a very old design. And in regards to 5 axis horizontals; the Yasda H40i is like the gold standard for reliability and accuracy, even though it is an old design. Fanuc controllers and dated sheetmetal are a turnoff for me, but they clearly still work.

Hermle does a ton of automation, though most of it is third party. Matsuura also offers mostly third party automation solutions. AFAIK, DMG MORI, Mazak, Grob, and Makino are the only builders who use their own pallet pool systems for 630mm+ machines.

Again, at this point, basically all of the major builders know how to handle automation on a standalone system. Need to pick the partner that brings the most value for your application.

LockNut · Apr 1, 2020

I work for Doosan and I saw this post earlier. I did not chime in because purchasing a machine is a very important decision, especially one of this magnitude and I am probably biased. But I do use the DVF5000 all of the time. I just urge you to look at the DVF5000 very carefully. I work with mostly 5 axis machines at Doosan and can speak for the DVF5000. All I will offer here is help with information relating to the machine. Contact me if you want info or questions answered from someone besides a sales rep. The work changer comes in 4,6,8,12,16 and 24 pallet setups. The DVF6500 and DVF8000 both offer turning capabilities also.

Paul Anderson
Applications Engineer
Doosan Machine Tools America
[email protected]
973-618-2457

mkd · Apr 1, 2020

e500u
48hp hsk63 with a pallet pool will fit the bill nicely.

mkd · Apr 1, 2020

boosted said:
@empower

Like I said; my feelings about machines being old is subjective. Also, old doesn't necessarily mean bad. The DMG MORI NMV platform is freaking awesome, but they are a very old design. And in regards to 5 axis horizontals; the Yasda H40i is like the gold standard for reliability and accuracy, even though it is an old design. Fanuc controllers and dated sheetmetal are a turnoff for me, but they clearly still work.

Hermle does a ton of automation, though most of it is third party. Matsuura also offers mostly third party automation solutions. AFAIK, DMG MORI, Mazak, Grob, and Makino are the only builders who use their own pallet pool systems for 630mm+ machines.

Again, at this point, basically all of the major builders know how to handle automation on a standalone system. Need to pick the partner that brings the most value for your application.

yep, don't forget GF Mikron has in house 3R brand of tooling and automation from mild to wild.

dstryr · Apr 1, 2020

LockNut said:
I work for Doosan and I saw this post earlier. I did not chime in because purchasing a machine is a very important decision, especially one of this magnitude and I am probably biased. But I do use the DVF5000 all of the time. I just urge you to look at the DVF5000 very carefully. I work with mostly 5 axis machines at Doosan and can speak for the DVF5000. All I will offer here is help with information relating to the machine. Contact me if you want info or questions answered from someone besides a sales rep. The work changer comes in 4,6,8,12,16 and 24 pallet setups. The DVF6500 and DVF8000 both offer turning capabilities also.

Paul Anderson
Applications Engineer
Doosan Machine Tools America
[email protected]
973-618-2457

Is there a DVF3000 coming?

DVF5000 vs. MX330 - Or Other 5 Axis Pallet Solutions

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