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Dykem hi-spot vs Canode

pcm81

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Location
USA FL
I tried using both on my surface plate and it seems to me that canode is thicker and is harder to spread evenly. Dykem shows local high spots, but canode blues most of the part (guessing the layer on sufrace plate is too thick). Also, it feels like canode grabs the part and holds it to surface plate, rather than letting it glide as dykem allows. So far, I tried spreading them both with fingers and with paper towel, which matches the technique i saw on youtube from what looks like 1950s video. Also, on youtube i see people using silicone rollers to spread canode.

My question is:
Is canode less sensitive of a transfer fluid than dykem, or is the problem with my technique of applying canode (using fingers rather than roller)? I'll give canode + silicone roller a try if you guys think that is the problem with my technique...
 
I tried using both on my surface plate and it seems to me that canode is thicker and is harder to spread evenly. Dykem shows local high spots, but canode blues most of the part (guessing the layer on sufrace plate is too thick). Also, it feels like canode grabs the part and holds it to surface plate, rather than letting it glide as dykem allows. So far, I tried spreading them both with fingers and with paper towel, which matches the technique i saw on youtube from what looks like 1950s video. Also, on youtube i see people using silicone rollers to spread canode.

My question is:
Is canode less sensitive of a transfer fluid than dykem, or is the problem with my technique of applying canode (using fingers rather than roller)? I'll give canode + silicone roller a try if you guys think that is the problem with my technique...

For dykem a hard rubber brayer works best, for Cnode I either use a dense foam paint roller or a soft rubber foam brayer

4" Dense Foam Paint Roller with Handle - - Amazon.com

Amazon.com: Alvin H41217 Brayer Rubber 4in Pop-in Roll by Speedball

And yes Canode is a more sticky thicker spotting media you need to spread it extremely thin. The best way is to roll it out in a separate area and transfer from there with a non saturated roller. The foam rubber brayer works better because it does nto absorb it like the dense foam paint roller. It takes some getting used to but i can get about the same spotting from either ink. The benefit of Canode is that it is much less "Smurfy"
tQxvsnM7.jpg


dee
;-D
 
For dykem a hard rubber brayer works best, for Cnode I either use a dense foam paint roller or a soft rubber foam brayer

4" Dense Foam Paint Roller with Handle - - Amazon.com

Amazon.com: Alvin H41217 Brayer Rubber 4in Pop-in Roll by Speedball

And yes Canode is a more sticky thicker spotting media you need to spread it extremely thin. The best way is to roll it out in a separate area and transfer from there with a non saturated roller. The foam rubber brayer works better because it does nto absorb it like the dense foam paint roller. It takes some getting used to but i can get about the same spotting from either ink. The benefit of Canode is that it is much less "Smurfy"
tQxvsnM7.jpg


dee
;-D

Thanks for sharing your experience. The canode did feel extremely sticky and it took allot more of it to cover the same area; so i figured the issue was with my technique.
 
It dries out also, which HiSpot does not do in any reasonable time.

I canlt seem to get it thin enough with a roller, I went back to a "dauber" type deal for spreading it on the flat. That part is probably personal preference, but your experience with Canode is similar to mine. I put up with it just because of the "smurfy" factor.
 
It dries out also, which HiSpot does not do in any reasonable time.

I canlt seem to get it thin enough with a roller, I went back to a "dauber" type deal for spreading it on the flat. That part is probably personal preference, but your experience with Canode is similar to mine. I put up with it just because of the "smurfy" factor.

one more piece of info, if you really need to have it real thin add a bit of windex before spreading it. The issue is that it makes it dry faster, so it needs to be cleaned and reapplied often.

dee
;-D
 
I tried using both on my surface plate and it seems to me that canode is thicker and is harder to spread evenly. Dykem shows local high spots, but canode blues most of the part (guessing the layer on sufrace plate is too thick). Also, it feels like canode grabs the part and holds it to surface plate, rather than letting it glide as dykem allows. So far, I tried spreading them both with fingers and with paper towel, which matches the technique i saw on youtube from what looks like 1950s video. Also, on youtube i see people using silicone rollers to spread canode.

My question is:
Is canode less sensitive of a transfer fluid than dykem, or is the problem with my technique of applying canode (using fingers rather than roller)? I'll give canode + silicone roller a try if you guys think that is the problem with my technique...

For Dykem, I use a hard rubber Brayer as instructed by Forrest. To cover a new area of a stone say 36" long by 8" wide i take the Dykem and apply small 1/2-pea sized blobs about every 8 inches in probably two rows. Then just start using the roller rapidly running up and down the patch and lifting it which will make a bunch of elliptical areas of dykem in an irregular but recognizable pattern. Then I start rolling and, at the same time time,side-to-side scrubbing the brayer and that is what really smoothes out the Dykem. Also I roll the short dimension and the long dimension further eveneing out the dye. The "right" amount of Dykem has a sort of mat appearance. Won't take you long to figure out there is way to much or not enough. Excess can be removed with a paper towel but beware of fibers getting trapped in the dye. Cleanliness (OCD-like) helps. Before applying dye in the first place I clean and reclean the stone if it hasn't been used in a while. Then I run my bare hand over it a few times to feel for any hint of dust or dirt.

Yes, I end up with blue hands----"if they aren't blue, it's not true" Clean hands with naphtha, fast orange etc. It is very hard for me to keep the stuff off my hands. Soaking them in a tub for a while after helps with final cleanup.

I've used both Canode and Dykem and my personal preference is Dykem. I think the majority opinion favors Canode especially for its cleanup qualities.

Denis
 
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one more piece of info, if you really need to have it real thin add a bit of windex before spreading it. The issue is that it makes it dry faster, so it needs to be cleaned and reapplied often.

dee
;-D


Thanks.

Rich King told me that too, and I finally tried it recently. It works..... but like you say, there is a pretty narrow window of time where it is neither too dry, nor still too liquid and smeary. But it CAN be done.

Maybe as I do that more I will figure out a good system for using the Windex. Canode sure beats the heck out of the "Smurf" look, so I have incentive.

That HiSpot, or an earlier version, might be the origin of the term "blue collar work"........ It will get there and not take too long, either.
 
Thanks.

Rich King told me that too, and I finally tried it recently. It works..... but like you say, there is a pretty narrow window of time where it is neither too dry, nor still too liquid and smeary. But it CAN be done.

Maybe as I do that more I will figure out a good system for using the Windex. Canode sure beats the heck out of the "Smurf" look, so I have incentive.

That HiSpot, or an earlier version, might be the origin of the term "blue collar work"........ It will get there and not take too long, either.

Yup, that's my source too. You just have to listen to him when he tells stories around the campfire... so I heard from others who did go...


dee
;-D
 
A little off topic perhaps but along the same lines of discussion. I have been doing many babbitt bearing rescrape jobs on spindles lately at work and neither of the two blues work very well, they get too smeary, mostly because of the smooth ground and polished spindle your applying it to. In doing research, many of the old timers used red lead applied to the babbitt and left the spindle bare and just let the spindle rub through the red lead to reveal the high spots in the babbitt. Well, as you most likely know red lead is an OSHA no no, that and I really don't care to handle the stuff honestly. So I've found and alternative, red brick and mortar die, its available in powder form in a five pound bag on ebay very cheap. Mix it up with some naphtha and way oil to create a paste and it works amazingly well. Canode and Dykem have no place in spindle scraping as far as I'm concerned, the brick die works that well, rub it onto the babbitt and wipe off the excess, it leaves a DRY orange haze so there's no smearing to be had, and when you take your rubs the shiny high spots stand out in great contrast. I like the stuff so much I've been using it in flat scraping also. I use it the same way apply it to the workpiece and rub it on the clean plate to reveal the shiny high spots. It's a dry haze so there's virtually no thickness and no smearing, I still use canode for 80% of the job but for real sensitive finish work I like the brick die. I can really see how the old timers would have hated to give up their red lead, assuming the brick die works as well, I've never used actual red lead so I'll never know.
Chris German
 
Do you know what the material actually is? It would be bad to find out it is an abrasive.

My first thought is that the cheapest red pigment is actually iron rust, which is an abrasive. Don't know if I'd want to use that as a marking medium on bearings....

The other issue is how fine and well-sized the pigment is. As concrete colorant, good sizing of he particles would be nearly irrelevant, so there may be no guarantee on that.

I wonder if powdered chalk would be as good? It's pretty soft as things go, and could be removed pretty completely with vinegar, since the chalk is a base, and vinegar would attack it and dissolve it. The same issues of particle size would remain, but at least you could be pretty sure it was all removed.
 
Myself, in my own shop unencumbered by wel-intended OSHA rules, I would simply use Red Lead which I purchased years ago and is still readily and cheaply available from arts supply stores. Wih just a little care you can avoid eating it and adverse health affects would be very unlikely.

In an employed situation where the rules dare not be skirted, I would by a baq of dry tried-and-true prusian blue and suspend it in the same fashion as you are doing with the "unknown" brick pigment and ry it out. Almost certain to work as well. Not smeary. And no question as to its abrasive qualities. A lifetime bag is available cheap:
Natural Pigments Prussian Blue 5 g - Color: Blue - Color Index: Pigment Blue 27 (7751:1) - Chemical Name: Ammonium iron(III) hexacyanoferrate(II)

Certainly worth a try. I would wonder, as pointed out by JST, just what was being embedded in the babbit with the brick pigment. Sounds like it works well though.

Denis
 
Myself, in my own shop unencumbered by wel-intended OSHA rules, I would simply use Red Lead which I purchased years ago and is still readily and cheaply available from arts supply stores. Wih just a little care you can avoid eating it and adverse health affects would be very unlikely.

In an employed situation where the rules dare not be skirted, I would by a baq of dry tried-and-true prusian blue and suspend it in the same fashion as you are doing with the "unknown" brick pigment and ry it out. Almost certain to work as well. Not smeary. And no question as to its abrasive qualities. A lifetime bag is available cheap:
Natural Pigments Prussian Blue 5 g - Color: Blue - Color Index: Pigment Blue 27 (7751:1) - Chemical Name: Ammonium iron(III) hexacyanoferrate(II)

Certainly worth a try. I would wonder, as pointed out by JST, just what was being embedded in the babbit with the brick pigment. Sounds like it works well though.

Denis

you can also get red lead cheap

Lead(II,IV) oxide, Lead Tetroxide, Minium, Pb3O4 3g(1.58oz) | eBay

If you wear gloves, do not inhale or eat it you are ok...


dee
;-D
 
I was very skeptical using it at first. I know of a few other people using it so I'm not exactly the pioneer of its use in scraping. Before I used it on a project, I tested it's abrasiveness by rubbing two scraped peices of scrap together for quite some time to see if the pigment turned dark and after about five minutes I couldn't tell that there was any iron abraded off. Both parts still had a freshly scraped spangly appearance, not a dull hazy look as you'd expect from an abrasive, and they blued well to the plate still. I have no idea what is in it other than the description listed it as "environmentally and user safe" take that for what it's worth.
As far as particle size, I can't compare it to red lead as again I've never used it, however I feel it's very fine, so fine that unfortunately it works into your skin and is near impossible to remove, also its a b&*$h to get this stuff to mix up with the oil, it clumps quite strongly even with naphtha, a characteristic of fine particulates.
Let me clarify, I'm not saying it will replace the other blues out there, everything has its place, it's simply another tool to pick from when tackling a job. I would say try it yourself and see what you think, it's so darn cheap you can't go wrong and if you decide you don't like it you can save it for your next brick laying job!
Chris German
 
I gave Canode another try and using a rubber roller it seems to work better (spreads thinner). To be honest i still like the feel of Dykem better; dykem seems to be less grabby, so it transfers smother. May be if i add a drop of oil to canode before spreading it will smooth out...?

As far as the above comments about making your own bluing agent... I think the reason why prussian blue is still the pigment of choice is due to it's very small size. If you buy iron oxide or some other coloured powder it won't spread thinner than the size of the particles, so if we are talking flattening to 1 thou than probably no issues, but may want to stick it in ball mill to go finer. I have a 0.03 micron size white alumina powder, which might work for transfer work, but at $80/lb it iss probably not the first go-to choice for most folks.
 
I gave Canode another try and using a rubber roller it seems to work better (spreads thinner). To be honest i still like the feel of Dykem better; dykem seems to be less grabby, so it transfers smother. May be if i add a drop of oil to canode before spreading it will smooth out...?

As far as the above comments about making your own bluing agent... I think the reason why prussian blue is still the pigment of choice is due to it's very small size. If you buy iron oxide or some other coloured powder it won't spread thinner than the size of the particles, so if we are talking flattening to 1 thou than probably no issues, but may want to stick it in ball mill to go finer. I have a 0.03 micron size white alumina powder, which might work for transfer work, but at $80/lb it iss probably not the first go-to choice for most folks.

Alumina would be bad, it has a harness of 9 on the Mohr scale, and it is abrasive, it is like charging you bearing surfaces with grinding dust.

dee
;-D
 
Alumina would be bad, it has a harness of 9 on the Mohr scale, and it is abrasive, it is like charging you bearing surfaces with grinding dust.

dee
;-D

I agree, but with 0.03 micron particle size you would be hard pressed to grind/scratch anything at all. Trust me I tried... I usually use this stuff after 0.125 micron diamond spray on a leather strop when sharpening knives.
 
<Snip>

As far as the above comments about making your own bluing agent... I think the reason why prussian blue is still the pigment of choice is due to it's very small size.<Snip>.

At least two reasons it has been a standard for scraping since the beginning of scraping.
It is a very intense pigmanet, so that even in very slight concentration on surface it is highly visible

As well as its non-abrasive nature: From Wiki:
"By machinists and toolmakers[edit]Engineer's blue, Prussian blue in an oily base, is the traditional material used for spotting metal surfaces such as surface plates and bearings for hand scraping. A thin layer of nondrying paste is applied to a reference surface and transfers to the high spots of the workpiece. The toolmaker then scrapes, stones, or otherwise removes the marked high spots. Prussian blue is preferable because it will not abrade the extremely precise reference surfaces as many ground pigments may."

Denis

PS I was going to highliught that last sentence in red but that seemed inappropriate ;-)
 
At least two reasons it has been a standard for scraping since the beginning of scraping.
It is a very intense pigmanet, so that even in very slight concentration on surface it is highly visible

As well as its non-abrasive nature: From Wiki:
"By machinists and toolmakers[edit]Engineer's blue, Prussian blue in an oily base, is the traditional material used for spotting metal surfaces such as surface plates and bearings for hand scraping. A thin layer of nondrying paste is applied to a reference surface and transfers to the high spots of the workpiece. The toolmaker then scrapes, stones, or otherwise removes the marked high spots. Prussian blue is preferable because it will not abrade the extremely precise reference surfaces as many ground pigments may."

Denis

PS I was going to highliught that last sentence in red but that seemed inappropriate ;-)

Cromwells, UK, shipped Stuart's "Micrometer" Engineering Marking Paste in red as well as blue to me in the USA quickly and with no hassle.

The Data sheet for the red says 50% "China Clay".

Clays, as a class are mineral fines, generally Iron & Aluminum bearing, but not-only. Iron is far from the only red or reddish of mineral colours, though it is actually one of the more innocuous ones.

"Chinese red" or Vermilion red, for example, is classically 'cinnabar' (Mercury sulfide), and made synthetically for a verrrrrry long time already so as to be uber-fine and free of rocks and dog hair.

So the data sheet is a hint that it is toxic, but 'not quite enough' to be certain that it is Mercury sulfide.

OTOH, Stuart's has seen long use, so I'm good with that.

If I were wont to get any of these into my mouth, I suppose I'd be limited to spotting with Godiva Chocolate?

:D
 
I also prefer Dykem High Spot Blue and used it for years before I discovered the rebuilding shops at GM had helped in the recipe of Canode. The reason was because jokers were spreading Dykem on telephone ear speakers, on tool box handles, etc. Use your imagination. They banned it inside GM plants. So I had to figure out the method to use Canode. I also used Red-lead in the early days as my Dad used it during WW2 and back then they used Permatex bluing. It smeared so easy and was horrible to work with.

The way you rub your part on a plate or a straight-edge on a way is what many screw up with all the bluing. I also have tried the Stewards Ink from England. It is a combination of Dykem and Canode sort of.. It spread better with an ink roller and it washed off my hands with soap and water as does Canode.


Back when Ink Specialties made the Canode I suggested they make the color orange and they did and it worked like red lead. They also made Black and White. Now that B&B Chem makes it. They discontinued the black, white and orange.
The same people are in the office, but the owners are new I think and they live in Florida.

The reason I love Canode is you can wash it off your hands with soap and water.

Unlike Dykem you wear it for weeks. Some use Acedtone to remove it, no thanks.

Most who blue up parts set the part on the plate or SE on the way and rub it for 5 to 10 seconds. Wrong!

Set it on there and rub it for at least 20 times or 45 seconds as this will highlight the high spots and you will see low spots which is the same color, Black spots that means that is higher then the same color and if you are scraping off a granite or cast iron table rub the blues part on a dry spot where there is no blue. and "SHINE IT UP" the highest spots or high spots will get polished and shine like a mirror. Those are the highest and when your scraping for 40 PPI (30 and higher) only scrape the shiny ones

Another tip is to read or look at the blue on the bluing weather it is on a plate or a straight-edge. Where the opposite part is highest it will take off more blue in those area's.

I have had good luck using the hard rubber brayer after I spread it on with a foam paint roller. I also use a paint brush with 80% of the brisles cut off yo spread the blue in deep dovetails. I have used leather sheet also and red rags.

Another key and most important part is to wipe the part being blued and the sticky ink with your hand so you can feel the dirt on or in it. Wiping Dykem can be a real mess. They used to call me bluenose when I was a young scraper as I would rub my nose and the Dykem stayed put. I only spray Windex on Canode when it is dry out. One also needs to shake or stir Canoed if it has sat a while as the chemicals separate in the bottles. Like I said I prefer the appearance of Dykem, but have learned to appreciate Canode and having clean hands, clean nose and ears, clean underwear, etc. etc. Rich
 
Also when I am doing babbit I blue it up and scrape it weather it is a ID Bearing or a pie shaped flat bearing used in generators. I have had real great luck using the Yellow Timesavers Lapping Compound that is made to lap brass and Babbit and not imbed.

Then after I get super contact I scrape with a spoon scraper or hook pull scraper to give it oil pockets. Maybe another thread on ID, Brass and Babbit scraping inside the Machine Reconditioning forum.
 








 
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