ER40 Chuck with B&S 9 tail?
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    Default ER40 Chuck with B&S 9 tail?

    Is anyone aware of an ER40 Chuck with B&S 9 tail anywhere? I doubt that it exists, but thought that if it was anywhere to be found, that the mass of eyes here would know. Short of that, it seems that ER40 fixture plates are suddenly nowhere to be found either. Long story short, I want to put some collets on a spindle of a machine and it's either 5C or ER40. If I go 5C I have to buy a collet chuck, make a set-tru style back plate, mount and dial in as normal. For the money, I can use an ER40 fixture plate, have the same practical working range up front ( for my purposes ) and save myself both time AND money. I'd end up turning the plate down nearly 35% - 40%, but it's not prohibitive at all. Short of that, I could also just slam an adapter in there if I could find one with a BS9, but chances of that are less than a the proverbial snowball's... you get the drift. Yes, I could purchase one of the ER40/MT4 adapters and grind the taper, but that's actually more futzing around than it sounds, and I'm getting picky where I spend my time these days. So what's out there?

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    I have not seen a ER40 one myself, but I haven't looked in a long time either. My Index came with an adapter to use TG collets, can't remember which ones now, I don't use it much. I have never seen another or for sale either.

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    Is that a threaded spindle that you've got the BS9 on? I've made a variety of ER-40 adapters for various spindles up into 2"+ IIRC.

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    Surely you have an adapter or 2 for your B&S 9 spindle? Buy an ER-40 with an MT2 and stick it in the sleeve. B&S9 to MT2 are available every couple of week on ebay, it seems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TGTool View Post
    Is that a threaded spindle that you've got the BS9 on? I've made a variety of ER-40 adapters for various spindles up into 2"+ IIRC.
    Yes. It's 2.75" x something like 20TPI. Been a while since I looked. There's also a BHC of 1/4-20's on the face. My original thought was to purchase an ER40 plate and turn it down, drill some holes and bolt it on. But it seems that everyone one of the normal places is out of ER40 plates right now. I think I stumbled across one but it was so quickly dismissed as being ridiculously priced that I didn't even consider it a real answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by awander View Post
    Surely you have an adapter or 2 for your B&S 9 spindle? Buy an ER-40 with an MT2 and stick it in the sleeve. B&S9 to MT2 are available every couple of week on ebay, it seems.
    Yeah. Collets and solids and arbors. Oh my! ( couldn't resist ) But I'm averse to the stacking of interfaces. BS9 to MT2 or 3, to MT2 or 3 with ER40 chuck, to ER40 collet is just a wobble waiting to happen. I typically indicate to 1 or 2 ( 3 max ) tenths when working there, so I really don't want to be chasing that particular stack up. I want one single interface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Yes. It's 2.75" x something like 20TPI. Been a while since I looked. There's also a BHC of 1/4-20's on the face. My original thought was to purchase an ER40 plate and turn it down, drill some holes and bolt it on. But it seems that everyone one of the normal places is out of ER40 plates right now. I think I stumbled across one but it was so quickly dismissed as being ridiculously priced that I didn't even consider it a real answer.
    So can't you just machine one up for yourself? Once mounted on the spindle and turned in situ you'll have the best concentricity. One ID thread, one OD and an angle. Well, and some other whittling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TGTool View Post
    So can't you just machine one up for yourself? Once mounted on the spindle and turned in situ you'll have the best concentricity. One ID thread, one OD and an angle. Well, and some other whittling.
    Yep. Sure can. There's not much to them, or what I want. But I also said, "...and I'm getting picky where I spend my time these days."

    Older I get, and less quick I am to run off and make tooling. Used to be a time when I'd stop everything to make a special tool or accessory. I don't know when it happened, but somewhere along the way I realized that unless it is absolutely not available somewhere for purchase, that I'm not making money when I make tooling or accessories. As with all things in life, there's exceptions and some give and take... If I have to, I have to.

    Truth is, I make tooling and fixturing and accessories ALL THE TIME. It's part of the job. But I also know that while I can make a reamer if I have to, I'm better off spending the jack to buy one and get to the business of business. Same with this. If I can just buy one ( even if it needs minor mods ), I can be that much farther ahead on keeping the machine running and making the shop money. I've seen the plates for sale for $50 to $75. It's just not worth my time to replicate that.

    Besides, don't assume this is a lathe. It's not. I just want collets there.

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Yep. Sure can. .
    We are on the same wavelength w/r make/buy.

    With two mill spindles # 9 B &S, AND an Ellis DH, I've been scouting 'any' for three years, and ER-anything on #9 B&S almost as long.

    The ONLY one I ever saw was out of Hong Kong - amongst adverts for every-other tail, and AFAIK was a misprint 'coz it vanished, not to be seen again.

    Worse, ER DOES wear, even if not as bad for 'lobes' as some others, so it would be NICE to have more than one.

    Shout out a price if you go to making it. Or ER 20 or ER 32.

    I'll rob MY piggybank if it will stand it, and I may not be alone.

    Meanwhile, I use a straight-shank in a #9 B&S collet.

    Bill

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    Was ER even invented before B&S was obsolete?

    ;-)

    AFAIK, Mari does customs. But doesn't even show Morse taper ER chucks anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wesg View Post
    Was ER even invented before B&S was obsolete?
    Of course it was. And when do you expect B&S to go "obsolete" anyway?


    ;-)

    AFAIK, Mari does customs. But doesn't even show Morse taper ER chucks anymore.
    Good! The Quixotic family of Morse tapers should never have been allowed to escape drillpress spindles.

    Sometimes when in an especially evil mood, I think of converting everything Morse or B&S under-roof to Jarno just to confound the next owner.. Oscar's ghost might grin at that, lo these many years on. History records that he worked HARD to sell its simple regularity, and got rather shabbily shortchanged for it.

    Bill

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    Hey Bill,

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    With two mill spindles # 9 B &S, AND an Ellis DH, I've been scouting 'any' for three years, and ER-anything on #9 B&S almost as long.
    Heh. I hadn't even thought about the numerous DH's I have with that. Good point, although likely will never come up for me if I haven't needed one for them as yet. ( more below )

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Meanwhile, I use a straight-shank in a #9 B&S collet.
    I thought about that briefly, but discounted it quickly for the exact same reasons as before - error stack. In this case, I think the taper in a taper would likely actually be better.

    But, you've raised an interesting consideration now... I've this machine's application being discussed and now you've given rise to the thought of having quick collet ability on my dividing heads, and I imagine that I could even benefit by adding the capability to my manual lathe even though I have a collet closer and 5C nose insert. If I take all that seriously, I could almost justify making 4 for myself. I'd still rather find a decent source for the plates, but if I cannot it might just be palatable to make some...

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    er-32 with #7 B&S threaded shank
    Brown and Sharpe 7 ER32 Collet Chuck | eBay?
    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhruska View Post
    er-32 with #7 B&S threaded shank
    Brown and Sharpe 7 ER32 Collet Chuck | eBay?
    John
    John,

    Thank, but I'd rather ER40. ( ER50 would be even more desirable ) ER32 does _nothing_ for me. Too limited. I want a minimum of 1.0" colleting capacity. Larger is better. This started because I was going to install a chuck there, and collets will actually work better for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    Hey Bill,



    Heh. I hadn't even thought about the numerous DH's I have with that.
    All I have to do is use a #9 B&S shell/face mill holder as a 'backplate' and I don't need to mess with a thread-on chuck.

    Unlike a DH/Rotab with most tang-arsed MT, the #9 B&S has provision for a drawbar.

    Accurate enough. Hell for stout, more flexible as to what is put onto it, lighter and faster to change than typical threaded back chucks.


    I thought about that briefly, but discounted it quickly for the exact same reasons as before - error stack. In this case, I think the taper in a taper would likely actually be better.
    Just grab a ground shank, measure it and see. #9 B&S collets are long-bearing-body, both on the outer taper and inner grip surface. Can be MUCH nicer than, for example, an R8.


    But, you've raised an interesting consideration now... I've this machine's application being discussed and now you've given rise to the thought of having quick collet ability on my dividing heads, and I imagine that I could even benefit by adding the capability to my manual lathe even though I have a collet closer and 5C nose insert. If I take all that seriously, I could almost justify making 4 for myself. I'd still rather find a decent source for the plates, but if I cannot it might just be palatable to make some...
    Affordable ER-40 plate-mounts come out of a factory in China. A decent one. Got mine from Jeff at Tools-for-Cheap. AFAIK, he orders them in batches, and only once in a while.

    Before I spent TOO much on #9 tailed goods (I am already quite well covered) I would make my own.

    But not if a better craftsman was reasonably affordable.

    They do tend to LAST a helluva lot longer than some other tapers, so the 'lifetime' amortization of the cost is not high.

    Bill

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    Have never seen a B&S9 to ER, but had a TG or Accuflex (no idea which, as I had no need for it) in my hand last weekend.

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    Wells Index used to offer spindle regrinding service.. B&S #9 to R8..

    Not knowing what you have exactly... This might be an option..

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    Quote Originally Posted by abarnsley View Post
    Wells Index used to offer spindle regrinding service.. B&S #9 to R8..
    Not knowing what you have exactly... This might be an option..
    Hi abarnsley - No, it's not. R8 would be dismal for work holding. It's pathetic enough in milling machines. I shudder to think about it holding actual work. Thanks though. I appreciate the thought. I did come very close to pulling the spindle and having it opened up for 5C a few years back. PLENTY of meat in there. It's not a very long spindle, either. For the price and time, though, slapping a ER40 plate on the nose makes more sense than pulling the spindle and opening it up. Keep'm coming...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    PLENTY of meat in there. It's not a very long spindle, either. For the price and time, though, slapping a ER40 plate on the nose makes more sense than pulling the spindle and opening it up. Keep'm coming...
    30 taper if not 40 taper 'meat'?

    The 40 at least would make very good sense IMNSHO. Mind. Prejudiced. It's my 'other' well-tooled set here - the Quartet's Horizontal and the K&T universal vertical adapter for it. Keyed and drawbarred for a mix of NMTB40 and CAT40.

    The ER-40 has been added arredy, and was not all that dear, even brand-new. Several hang-out lengths easily found as well - even as 'sets'.

    Haven't tried BT goods just yet, but AFAIK, just one more drawbar once the drive lugs have already been modified for Cat.

    40 taper - for small/medium, but at least REAL mills - is about as competitive a market as R8 is for little mill/drills. Sometimes it is even cheaper. It will continue to be easy to find at least as Cat and BT for a loooong time.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    30 taper if not 40 taper 'meat'?
    The 40 at least would make very good sense IMNSHO. Mind. Prejudiced. It's my 'other' well-tooled set here - the Quartet's Horizontal and the K&T universal vertical adapter for it. Keyed and drawbarred for a mix of NMTB40 and CAT40.
    The ER-40 has been added arredy, and was not all that dear, even brand-new. Several hang-out lengths easily found as well - even as 'sets'.
    Haven't tried BT goods just yet, but AFAIK, just one more drawbar once the drive lugs have already been modified for Cat.
    40 taper - for small/medium, but at least REAL mills - is about as competitive a market as R8 is for little mill/drills. Sometimes it is even cheaper. It will continue to be easy to find at least as Cat and BT for a loooong time.
    Bill
    Bill, it's a GREAT idea. I can't believe I never thought of it myself. Still, we're at the same point - time, effort, and cost of modification versus slapping a ER40 plate on the nose. I am getting by with fixturing and work holding right now, but I'd like to make life easier with the collets. The problem added is that even if there was no effort and cost to doing the spindle mod, I really don't want to have the machine down long enough to do so. It's a workhorse for me. Makes money on an almost daily basis. Hence the search for the plate or adapters. I've been searching off an on all day today, too. After a month of this and the conversation here, it seems like I need to suck it up and make a few plates or threaded spindle chucks... I really didn't want to, but here we are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahnrad Kopf View Post
    .. it seems like I need to suck it up and make a few plates or threaded spindle chucks... I really didn't want to, but here we are.
    Simpler way. Two, actually.

    A) ER-40 straight-shank tail. I go to 'Alles Gutt' for example.

    Turn the cheese of your choice - 8620 for me - to a #9 B&S taper, thread for drawbar, blue in.

    IN situ, bore it for an interference fit to the straight shank. Heat, mate, bore and cross-pin.

    One ER40 'definite size' collet. The limited-collapse, high-grip sort meant for taps and drills

    Dial-in a bar that will fit the collet, take a skim cut to clean-up and match, wrench the ER-40 onto it, check for the runout of the #9 B&S.

    It will be there.

    Clean THAT up. Done

    Update.. belay all that. Mea Culpa .. I hadn't paid attention to there being plenty of straight-shank tails clear up to inch and three-quarter diameter out there...


    B) Same again, but starting with an ER40 on 50 taper tail (or MT 5?). Harder turning. Greatly so. And you will have to diddle the drawbar with an insert.
    But no shrink-fit sleeve required.

    Update.. that as well. Even IF .. a straight tail is a tad SHORT, there will still be plenty of bearing surface in a #9 B&S to work well-enough.

    You want to make TWO of those any time in the next six months, one for ME ...I'll ship you MY ER-40 plate next week. Flat back. Never yet been mounted.

    4-jaw and 5C will tide me over in the meantime. I ain't rich. But neither do I have car payments or mortgages, so I don't HAVE to make chips.


    Bill
    Last edited by thermite; 12-14-2014 at 10:17 AM.


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