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Facemill for light duty mill - aka 3 hp BP clone

O

Overland

Stainless
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Location
Greenville, SC
From what I read, I "need a high-shear" cutter for this type of machine.
I am looking at a VNE 4" facemill with 6 cutters, comes with SEKT 43AFTN LT30 1204 carbide inserts. I will be using it mainly for steels, doubtfully anything too hard.

I recognize this may be a lot of cutter for this machine, but I can watch the amps on the VFD so I know I'm not overloading the motor, at least.

I've tried to find some info on the VNE brand but found nothing. Does anybody have any experience or knowledge please ?

Secondly, selecting an insert is a minefield for me. Is the insert I've mentioned above appropriate for my needs, please ? Is the geometry a good choice, and the grade ?
If not could somebody point me in a better direction please ?

I currently have a 2" dia cutter using TNG inserts. Looking for something bigger and with the "high-shear" feature.

Thanks in advance,
Bob
 
4" seems like a lot for a little duty machine. Our Willis microcut bedmill has a 7.5 hp spindle motor. I used mainly 3" and smaller cutters on it. A Seco 3" that uses sean/sekn inserts. Iscar brand inserts were great too. I also had a couple of smaller import cutters(Poland) that used the same inserts. Inserts are very economical. I also used Freedom brand cutters. They cut well and had octagon inserts but they were pricey. ($13+) We bought an Iscar cutter 2.5" that was great for Stainless. I'll have to get the model #. Inserts were beefy but only had 2 cutting edges.
 
4" is on the big side on a knee mill unless you're only going to be taking light cuts with it. You'll run out of horsepower pretty fast with any decent depth of cut. I have a little Iscar 2" facemill that uses 8 sided high shear inserts that is pretty good for a small machine like a knee mill. The inserts are OEMT I believe. SEKN or similar are very good too.
 
I would suggest a face mill with a integral shank that matches your machine. This will make it more rigid and shorter with less stickout.
Bill D
 
I don't know how well it would work for steels, but the local high school robot team shop uses a 2" or 2.5" ShearHog on a Jet Bridgeport clone to face off aluminum, and it's a favorite tool.
 
Something to consider .... if you have a lathe, you have an endless supply of the unused corners on cnmg inserts. Not the geometry you want and you'd probably use them on about a 1 1/2" dia cutter but ... free. And they give a nice finish if you push them.

Did I mention free ?
 
Another query without adequate information.

Depth of cut? Desired finish? etc.

I can run an 8" face mill on my Wells Index. But only for very light skim cuts and with some or most of the inserts left off. But, it serves its purpose which is a single pass, very fine finish.
 
My suggestion...

Get something like a two inch inserted end mill for metal removal. I am partial to sandvick R390. They seem to remove a lot of metal per horse power, very efficient cutters. In fact i do 90% of the milling on the manual mills with a 5/8 sandvik.

Then use a fly cutter with an HSS tool to skim cut a beautiful mirror finish
 
Thanks all for the feedback, and ideas.
I have a VFD on my mill, so I see how many amps I'm using.
Running with no cutting load, it shows about 1.3 amps (230 v, 3 ph).
Using my 2" facemill with TNG insert with 0.080" cut I get about 2.5 amps load, with a fairly fast feed. This equates to less than 1.5 hp. I don't know what the feed is as I'm using an electric feed.
Rigidity is an issue here more than available hp.

I realize I will be limited on both hp and rigidity, but I thought this style of insert, SEKT, may give me more efficient cutting, with less forces.

link to the cutter that caught my eye:
VNE HIGH SHEAR 4" FACEMILL #VNS45-4000-12M W/ SEKT 1204 CARBIDE INSERTS XS039 | eBay
 
You are near that HP with a 2.5" cutter. You won't be near that HP with a 4" cutter. Even less so if you are going to be switching to an insert with a near wiper flat. Just be aware of that.

With the 2" cutter and fresh sharp inserts I can take .100" DOC and feed about half as fast as I can crank the handle (so feed around 12-15 ipm) with 3 HP. Much faster than that and I run out of HP. The rigidity should be fine as long as the spindle bearings are in good shape and preloaded correctly. Any of you guys having chatter problems with this kind of cut on a Bport or similar should check that out.
 
Mr. Kretz,
Thanks for your input, but I'm not understanding your points.
Are you saying that the SEKT style of insert is less efficient than the TNG ?
Sorry, but what is the "near wiper flat" ?

The rigidity issues I was referring to was not the spindle, more the table feed being hammered as I increased the feeds.

Does anyone know of a source of info to better understand the different insert geometries and their benefits please ? Maybe manufacturers literature ?

Thanks
Bob
 
Overland said:
Mr. Kretz,
Thanks for your input, but I'm not understanding your points.
Are you saying that the SEKT style of insert is less efficient than the TNG ?
Sorry, but what is the "near wiper flat" ?

The rigidity issues I was referring to was not the spindle, more the table feed being hammered as I increased the feeds.

Does anyone know of a source of info to better understand the different insert geometries and their benefits please ? Maybe manufacturers literature ?

Thanks
Bob
Click to expand...

Your numbers were referring to a 2.5" cutter. A 4" cutter will likely use close to double the HP for the same depth of cut and feed. Generally, the more of the insert in contact with the material being cut, the higher the forces generated. A 45° lead insert will be contacting along a pretty good length, and will probably also have more teeth in contact at once than your TNG cutter. The wiper flat on something like SEKN will add a little more power draw.

The hammering you describe is way more likely to be coming from the spindle/drive gearing/spline than the table. The table is probably one of the most rigid parts in the chain on a BP or similar mill. And that is almost certainly caused by your choice of cutter. A TNG facemill could pretty accurately be christened a "rotary hammer." They have a straight edge with negative geometry that enters and exits the cut almost instantly...as in *BANG BANG BANG* - an SEKN or something else with a more positive helical entry and exit will be WAY smoother and quieter cutting. They are a far better choice for roughing.
 
I don't know what the feed is as I'm using an electric feed.
Click to expand...

You can see the handle? 1 mississippi.. 2 mississippi.. 3 mississippi 4 mississippi
5 mississippi.. And the handle has gone around once. Say its .200" per rev, you are going
3 inches a minute.

If its spinning faster, let it go around X number of times until it travels an inch..

1 mississippi, 2 mississippi, 3 mississippi.. Its gone an inch.. 20 inches a minute.

The math does matter.
 
eKretz said:
Your numbers were referring to a 2.5" cutter. A 4" cutter will likely use close to double the HP for the same depth of cut and feed. Generally, the more of the insert in contact with the material being cut, the higher the forces generated. A 45° lead insert will be contacting along a pretty good length, and will probably also have more teeth in contact at once than your TNG cutter. The wiper flat on something like SEKN will add a little more power draw.

The hammering you describe is way more likely to be coming from the spindle/drive gearing/spline than the table. The table is probably one of the most rigid parts in the chain on a BP or similar mill. And that is almost certainly caused by your choice of cutter. A TNG facemill could pretty accurately be christened a "rotary hammer." They have a straight edge with negative geometry that enters and exits the cut almost instantly...as in *BANG BANG BANG* - an SEKN or something else with a more positive helical entry and exit will be WAY smoother and quieter cutting. They are a far better choice for roughing.
Click to expand...

eKretz is preaching it. Bigger cutter isn't going to relieve the banging. Tooth engagement is your friend.
 
Appreciate people taking the time to respond; hopefully others are learning from this discussion as well.
The hammering I'm referring to was the bouncing back and fore of the table as the inserts come in contact.
I saw this as I was increasing the feed rate to try to use more of the 3 hp - a learning experience. So backing off the feed stopped this hammering. (I was using a 2" dia 3 insert TNG cutter, cutting about 1.5" width, entering the cut at 90 deg, and exiting about 45). The spindle seemed to be quite solid.
I just looked up the SEKN insert, and compared to the SEKT insert on the facemill that caught my eye. They seem to be very similar profiles.
Wouldn't the SEKN insert sit in the facemill the same as the cutter I'm looking at ?

My point here to learn and understand, not to contradict.

VNE HIGH SHEAR 4" FACEMILL #VNS45-4000-12M W/ SEKT 1204 CARBIDE INSERTS XS039 | eBay
 
If your mill table is banging and hopping around you had better check the gibs tout suite. It would behoove you to get more than a single insert into the cut at once as well.

SEKN inserts have no through hole and are clamped in position with a screw or clamp that pulls them into the insert pocket. SEKT have a through hole and are held in by a simple screw through the center. On a BP, SEKT will probably be just fine. They are effectively the same insert as far as cutting geometry but cannot be interchanged in the cutters.
 
I ran a lot of 304, 316, 420,440c, and 17-4 on a knee mill at work. I found the best results with either a 2" 3 tooth or 2" 4 tooth Seco face mill. We had a 6" cutter I tried a few times, even in 303 a knee mill doesn't really have the rigidity for that type of milling
 
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