Hi guys, first time machine buyer. Just picked up a fadal vmc15 year 2000 has less than 1,000 hours on the machine and everything seems to be in great shape but it is sat for 5 years and I just wanted to know if there’s anything I need to be careful of before I put power to it. The machine was owned by a gunsmith previously and seems to have been pretty well maintained.
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Fadal sat for 5 years, what to look for
- Thread starter Aaron3309
- Start date
- Replies 27
- Views 3,727
Bobw
Diamond
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2005
- Location
- Hatch, NM Chile capital of the WORLD
Make sure that the transformer is tapped correctly for your incoming voltage.
And then double and triple check and make sure you have it right.
I'd also pull the covers and do a good manual lube job on the ways. If she's
a linear machine, I'd grease her up good before moving her.
Probably worth checking the battery too. Purple thing on one of the boards
in the card cage, over towards the left.
Depending on how clean or dirty the cabinets are, might be worth it to clean
and reseat all the boards before you fire it up. At least make sure the wires
going into the boards are set.
On the lube, if its a box machine, probably drop the tank off the oiler and clean
it and give her some fresh oil. After she's moving, pull all the metering valves and
make sure they are still firing. You can hook them direct to the pump, and fire it
off manually.
CORONA VIRUS
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2020
"Fadal sat for 5 years, what to look for"
A Haas
A Haas
I might be a bit careful on this one ^. That battery would be all that is retaining the configuration parameters on the machine and if it's still good you don't want to disconnect it and lose that critical information. I believe the best procedure would be to look at the battery part numbers, order a replacement from a reputable place like DigiKey and then once you get the machine powered up you can replace the battery carefully while there is another source of power to retain the settings. Of course if the battery has failed already you will have the fun task of trying to locate and re-enter all the configuration.
CarbideBob
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2007
- Location
- Flushing/Flint, Michigan
Five years is not that long if sitting in a decent environment.
In addition to Bobw's comments clean the spindle taper and do spindle jog and break-in.
This is to redistribute the lube which will have settled.
Many short 10-30 second runs at first with 30 seconds of wait done at lower speeds.
Then more mid speed for 1-2 minutes again with waits.
Then longer and if possible feeling for heat when stopped.
Your spindle bearings will much appreciate being brought back gently to life.
Bob
In addition to Bobw's comments clean the spindle taper and do spindle jog and break-in.
This is to redistribute the lube which will have settled.
Many short 10-30 second runs at first with 30 seconds of wait done at lower speeds.
Then more mid speed for 1-2 minutes again with waits.
Then longer and if possible feeling for heat when stopped.
Your spindle bearings will much appreciate being brought back gently to life.
Bob
Bobw
Diamond
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2005
- Location
- Hatch, NM Chile capital of the WORLD
Never played with a Fadal, have you?
Who cares if you lose the parameters, its 3 simple pages, all written in English.
Machine configuration.
1) 22x16x20
2) 30x16x20
3) 40x20x20
4) 40x20x28
Rigid Tapping.
1)yes
2)no
It really is that simple.
Nothing to lose, I can do it from just looking at the machine. Worse case its all
written on a single page stuck to the inside of the pendant.
Its not page after page after page after page of hexidecimal and binary #'s. Just
plain simple English.
But that would completely suck. The battery is just holding the parameters and that
little tiny bit you take out by checking it puts it under, and the only copy of your
parameters is in a dusty box in a flooded basement somewhere in Japan.
Never thought about that. Parameters are going to be there or not when you fire up the
machine... But on a Fadal it doesn't matter, you could have to re-enter them every morning,
and it would only take a few minutes.
wesg
Titanium
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2004
The battery on mine is soldered in. I assume they all are. Just order a new one, from one of the Fadal parts suppliers. They're not expensive.
Thanks for the info! The inside of the enclosure is kind of dirty, there’s a lot of steel chips that had rusted. I pulled the way covers and the linear rails are in excellent shape it appears, the cars look practically brand new once wiped off. Spindle is very smooth from what I can tell. Inside the all the electrical cabinets is spotless, like you could eat off it spotless and there was a card that is labeled 1460-22 still in the package sitting in there which I think is the expanded memory. One thing I don’t know about is if it is ok that there was a tool holder in the spindle this whole time? The head was blocked with wood and counter weight was pinned when it was moved.
Vancbiker
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2014
- Location
- Vancouver, WA. USA
Fixed your mistake.
CarbideBob
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2007
- Location
- Flushing/Flint, Michigan
Interesting the no Fadal love here.
Wonder real experience on many machine tools, internet experience or a great vote for "my" machine.
Show me the six-sigma R&R off off your "Mori, Makino, Okuma" and how does it compare?
Yes better but how much for the price and to part specs?
Do you even do such care and know PPK and the basics or are these just better from some brand name thing.
Does tooling make a difference?
Bob
Vancbiker
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2014
- Location
- Vancouver, WA. USA
In my case it’s because I worked for a Fadal distributor in the late 80s to early 90s. Best decision I made was to leave there and go independent so I could say no to Fadal service calls.
atex57
Stainless
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2006
- Location
- SW Wisconsin
Curious I am. Was it the machines? Owners of said machines? Owners of Fadal? Distributor?
Yes, I own one. Seems to be good enough for me but my needs are simple and don't need the latest high speed machine.
Ed.
Vancbiker
Diamond
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2014
- Location
- Vancouver, WA. USA
Little bit of all you wrote. Prior to my field service years I programmed, setup, and ran Mori Seiki and Okuma machines so had developed an appreciation for fine machine tools. When I started doing field service and applications it was on mostly on machines from premier Asian builders. When the distributor picked up Fadal, it was quite a let down to see how poorly they were built in comparison to what I had been working on.
The sales guys oversold them so I often had to deal with customers that had been told it was 99% as good as the premium machines they already owned (I guess they never heard the old saying “you get what you paid for”).
Lots of folks are satisfied with them and do make money so in that regard they are doing their job.
The sales guys oversold them so I often had to deal with customers that had been told it was 99% as good as the premium machines they already owned (I guess they never heard the old saying “you get what you paid for”).
Lots of folks are satisfied with them and do make money so in that regard they are doing their job.
atex57
Stainless
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2006
- Location
- SW Wisconsin
Yah, after Mori and Okuma a Fadal would be a letdown. Oh well, a simple machine for simple needs.
Ed.
RC Mech
Stainless
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2014
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
I’ve brought several Fadal’s back from the dead after long stints in storage. Last one was outside for nine years. Not the prettiest machine but it’s making the owner money now and everything Bob said above about the parameters is true.
I’m having more issues with the Calmotion card we installed than the machine itself. My VMC 15XT cut graphite electrodes all it’s life. The tool changer recently succumbed to the particulate intrusion. Blew it all apart with gusto as all the parts are still available. Changed wire connections to the turret motor (they were shorting), packed gear box with grease as it had oil in it still (TSB on this IIRC). It’s now working fine.
Yesterday I fired up the Takisawa lathe with Fanuc 6TB that has been in storage for two years. I was elated to see the parameters are all there on the control. Now, I have them in a folder in the rear cabinet along with the original bill of sale, build sheet and Fanuc spec sheet, but the very existence of these papers in the old CNC realm are the exception not the rule.
It has a 400 servo error. That’ll take longer to sort than if’n it were a Fadal. Don’t get me started on the SL-10 that was brought back from the dead with a laundry list of errors on start up. That one may end up in the scrap bin.
I’m having more issues with the Calmotion card we installed than the machine itself. My VMC 15XT cut graphite electrodes all it’s life. The tool changer recently succumbed to the particulate intrusion. Blew it all apart with gusto as all the parts are still available. Changed wire connections to the turret motor (they were shorting), packed gear box with grease as it had oil in it still (TSB on this IIRC). It’s now working fine.
Yesterday I fired up the Takisawa lathe with Fanuc 6TB that has been in storage for two years. I was elated to see the parameters are all there on the control. Now, I have them in a folder in the rear cabinet along with the original bill of sale, build sheet and Fanuc spec sheet, but the very existence of these papers in the old CNC realm are the exception not the rule.
It has a 400 servo error. That’ll take longer to sort than if’n it were a Fadal. Don’t get me started on the SL-10 that was brought back from the dead with a laundry list of errors on start up. That one may end up in the scrap bin.
I bought a slightly used 2001 model 4020HT in 2003 for $50K (SMW 4th axis, 28" Z). Over the years, total repairs and maintenance have added up to maybe $15K. It needed a vector drive once and a couple of servo amps and a handful of minor things.
Last year alone, my profit from that machine was over $70K. That's just one year out of the last eighteen. It's paid for itself several times over. That machine owes me nothing. It could completely fail tomorrow and have to be scrapped, and I'd still be way way ahead.
I'm sure the Mori's, Okuma's, etc are better, no doubt in my mind. If someone else was paying for my equipment I'd be happy to have one. But everything I buy, the money comes out of my pocket, and I can make a good case for the Fadal.
Last year alone, my profit from that machine was over $70K. That's just one year out of the last eighteen. It's paid for itself several times over. That machine owes me nothing. It could completely fail tomorrow and have to be scrapped, and I'd still be way way ahead.
I'm sure the Mori's, Okuma's, etc are better, no doubt in my mind. If someone else was paying for my equipment I'd be happy to have one. But everything I buy, the money comes out of my pocket, and I can make a good case for the Fadal.
G
Guest
Guest
This, all the CNC machines I have owned it is required you change batteries while the machine is powered up.
RC Mech
Stainless
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2014
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
Yes but as Bob and I have said above on a Fadal losing all the parameters is not a show stopper.
DavidScott
Diamond
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2012
- Location
- Washington
Do the lead screw error maps not get lost when the battery goes dead?
Things to check. BELLEVILLE WASHERS FOR THE DRAWBAR!!! On the machine I worked on you had to replace the broken ones every 12 months at a minimum. Wait 18 months and you could wiggle the tool holder in the spindle when clamped as it was now loose, rattle around loose. The biggest tools I really pushed were 3/8" endmills in aluminum, it was nothing I was doing to the machine. Way lube pump, make sure the plunger is retracting after a lube cycle. It uses a spring to return it and ours got stuck in the depressed state, so it was no longer pumping way oil, and kept it a secret, no alarms or errors.
I learned to dislike Fadals by running one for 7 years, it was a 15xt with the CNC88HS control new in late 1997. It was my first CNC job so I had no prior experience with better machines. The other machines in the shop were late 70s to early 80s Pratt&Whittney Robodrills. I liked the 1984 Robo better than the new Fadal in many ways.
When it came time to buy my own machines, with my own money, I went with used Enshu and Kitamura. Basically the same vintage as the Fadal just 3 times faster, multitudes more accurate at higher feeds, and they don't require the fixing of little things that shouldn't be needing attention. Sure they are cheap and simple, but real machines are way more productive if your doing production, or care about speed AND accuracy.
Things to check. BELLEVILLE WASHERS FOR THE DRAWBAR!!! On the machine I worked on you had to replace the broken ones every 12 months at a minimum. Wait 18 months and you could wiggle the tool holder in the spindle when clamped as it was now loose, rattle around loose. The biggest tools I really pushed were 3/8" endmills in aluminum, it was nothing I was doing to the machine. Way lube pump, make sure the plunger is retracting after a lube cycle. It uses a spring to return it and ours got stuck in the depressed state, so it was no longer pumping way oil, and kept it a secret, no alarms or errors.
I learned to dislike Fadals by running one for 7 years, it was a 15xt with the CNC88HS control new in late 1997. It was my first CNC job so I had no prior experience with better machines. The other machines in the shop were late 70s to early 80s Pratt&Whittney Robodrills. I liked the 1984 Robo better than the new Fadal in many ways.
When it came time to buy my own machines, with my own money, I went with used Enshu and Kitamura. Basically the same vintage as the Fadal just 3 times faster, multitudes more accurate at higher feeds, and they don't require the fixing of little things that shouldn't be needing attention. Sure they are cheap and simple, but real machines are way more productive if your doing production, or care about speed AND accuracy.
Bobw
Diamond
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2005
- Location
- Hatch, NM Chile capital of the WORLD
No. Those stay on the axis controller cards, I'm not sure how they are written, or
what mechanism is used to retain them.
If you were losing bellevilles every 12 months, somebody was crashing that machine.
Its very common for them to be bad, but I've only ever seen bad ones on machines I've
bought, or the result of a crash.
I bought a machine in 2008. It was a cream puff, I had my bellevilles ready to go
when it hit the floor, but it had excellent tool retention. And now 12 and half years
later it still has excellent tool retention on those bellevilles that were in there
when I got it. She's runs everyday, and she's not babied.
When I ran somebody else's shop, and we had unskilled part timers loading parts, went
through a lot of bellevilles, and axis driver boards.
