Fastener strength for motorcycle brakes - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    i dont even want to think about breathing the dust. i thought berillium was banned long ago.

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    Has some interesting machining shots, kinda fun. This was the most revolutionary bike that never got the credit it deserved ... Lockheed calipers and cast iron rotors, too


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    Hmm - those do seem to be carbon, but not the C-C used on F1 cars. Those truly are expensive due to the time to manufacture them, including long heating/carbonizing processes.

    The Lotus ones - dunno without buying a disk and doing some mechanical/destructive testing, but I'd be shocked if they're anywhere near the same. Most likely a carbon-ceramic type.

    Reinforced carbon–carbon - Wikipedia

    How It's Made Ceramic Composite Brake Discs - YouTube [not a great vid, but covers most of the process]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Hmm - those do seem to be carbon, but not the C-C used on F1 cars. Those truly are expensive due to the time to manufacture them, including long heating/carbonizing processes.

    The Lotus ones - dunno without buying a disk and doing some mechanical/destructive testing, but I'd be shocked if they're anywhere near the same. Most likely a carbon-ceramic type.

    Reinforced carbon–carbon - Wikipedia

    How It's Made Ceramic Composite Brake Discs - YouTube [not a great vid, but covers most of the process]
    IIRC the lotus disks were actually developed for Formula 2 cars. Even size is same as F1 brake disks.
    I'm not sure if they are running standard disks on every F2 car or what is the catch with the "cheap" price.
    Freno H-Carb Brakes - the h-carb braking revolution is here

    "FrenoCarbon H-CarbTM is very different from the now common Carbon Ceramic composite which weighs nearly twice as much and generates much less braking power.

    FrenoCarbon H-CarbTM improves Carbon Carbon’s cold and wet performance to the level of conventional Iron/Steel brakes, whilst retaining Carbon Carbon’s extreme braking capabilities. "
    "FrenoCarbon H-Carb brake discs and pads have been exclusively specified for the FIA F2 Championship."

    Lots of marketing talk but it appears that they are close relative of carbon-carbon.

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    First one: jim drives to work in the morning.
    Second one: jim driving home from work at night.

    (first one I think is reg pridmore)

    Stainless rotors (especially the un-drilled versions) have a troublesome issue that they provide zero braking power in the rain, until the layer of water skims off. This can be surprising the first time it is experienced.
    I did replace that one with a meehanite rotor, which worked great. Until you ran it in the rain and put the bike away for a while.

    As mentioned stainless rotors do develop hard spots, which can NOT be effectively cleaned up on a lathe. And the last guy in peekskill who had a blanchard grinder, closed his shop a long time ago.

    The pridmore bike above was an R90S that he won the superbike championship in '76 I believe. It grew into this 1000 cc version later on. Mine rarely experiences inverted flight:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dscn0204.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    (first one I think is reg pridmore)
    Second one is Steve McLaughlin, who almost won that race ! Those bikes had a bunch of interesting non-standard features ...

    Found that MattiJ is probably right on newer brakes, the Beard hasn't made disks in some time now. Another one bites the dust

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    All you guys winging about 1/4" bolts would shit yourselves if you looked at an Indycar, 1/4" bolts hold the brake rotor to the aluminum hat that slides on the drive pegs. It is clamped up to the axle flange by the wheel that is held on by a single nut. They use carbon rotors and pads as a cost control, they last much longer than the iron rotors they used to use. BTW, the iron rotors were held on by 1/4" bolts as well! The front upper wishbone is held to the tub with 2 1/4" bolts. I have never seen them break even in a huge shunt. The wishbone folds up or rips off first, once in a while the bolt will bend a bit. A 1/4" bolt is stronger than you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    The front upper wishbone is held to the tub with 2 1/4" bolts. I have never seen them break even in a huge shunt.
    Betcha Stan Fox was wishing like hell they'd at least gone to 5/16 on those ... and maybe added a third one

    Matti - look through the Beringer catalog. Several places note that stainless is for street, cast iron for "sporting" use. Of coure they buckled under to the fear of rust as well and added more stainless over time, but it's really not a good material for brakes.

    They are French, however, so .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    All you guys winging about 1/4" bolts would shit yourselves if you looked at an Indycar, 1/4" bolts hold the brake rotor to the aluminum hat that slides on the drive pegs. It is clamped up to the axle flange by the wheel that is held on by a single nut. They use carbon rotors and pads as a cost control, they last much longer than the iron rotors they used to use. BTW, the iron rotors were held on by 1/4" bolts as well! The front upper wishbone is held to the tub with 2 1/4" bolts. I have never seen them break even in a huge shunt. The wishbone folds up or rips off first, once in a while the bolt will bend a bit. A 1/4" bolt is stronger than you think.
    Yeahbut - - I'd bet a donut or two that they're using NAS-grade 1/4" hardware, proly A286 at ~160KSI or similar. Not the random alloy OTS 1/4-20 cap or flathead SAE fasteners. So you get controlled thread, tight body diameters, real quality control, etc. Much higher yield before breakage too (bendy after a crash).

    And are the bobbin-mounted brakes just held by the fasteners, or is the bobbin also mortised into the carrier? I'd think (hope!) so, with the fastener just holding location and not really dealing with braking torque. And let's not forget the drive pegs go into the wheel too, the wheel nut's not really fighting braking torque, is it? The nut just keeps everything in close flying formation (usually).

    [MM's actually built this stuff, while I just like pulling it while reading tech articles, so he's welcome to smack me down here...]

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    Matti - look through the Beringer catalog. Several places note that stainless is for street, cast iron for "sporting" use. Of coure they buckled under to the fear of rust as well and added more stainless over time, but it's really not a good material for brakes.

    They are French, however, so .....
    Everyone is promoting whatever they produce... Brembo promotes for stainless and sells stainless and so on.


    At least Beringer doesn't hide they background:
    "1990: Facing the monopoly of Brembo (Italy) in the
    global market of motorcycles braking systems, of spare
    parts and competition, BERINGER started to make cast
    iron brake rotors"

    Beringer seem like small player in the mid-level. Maybe they have found their market spot in cast iron harley disks..
    Brembo on the other hand is probably something like 100 times bigger company that spends more money on advertising alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    All you guys winging about 1/4" bolts would shit yourselves if you looked at an Indycar, ....
    Indy car used for one race and they only turn left. Right?

    This bike, used on public roads, ridden, and put away wet. Rotors only looked at twice per year.

    Pridmores R90S in the photo above, true story, that bike was set up with a special, lightened, aftermarket crank originally, Crank blew up in practice.
    They replaced it with the stock crank, and ran all the races with that one crank. Stock machine made I think 62 hp, they were over 100 when they were done
    working on the motor. Sometimes lighter is not better.

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    Never compromise on the grade when it comes to brakes, always go with grade 8, grade 5 might serve your purpose but will leave you behind with a substantial amount of risk.

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    [QUOTE=jim rozen;3624056]Indy car used for one race and they only turn left. Right? [/QUOTE

    Wrong.......Indy Cars run on more street and natural terrain road courses than ovals. Even back in the iron rotor days the bolts ran all season. Iron rotors were good for 1 race. We would usually reuse the bolts and use new high heat jet nuts. I am told the teams run the carbon / carbon pads / rotors 5 - 6 races. The pads, rotors and calipers are from Performance Friction, spec parts to contain costs. You can be pretty sure the bolts are not changed more often than the rotors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethan Scott View Post
    Never compromise on the grade when it comes to brakes, always go with grade 8, grade 5 might serve your purpose but will leave you behind with a substantial amount of risk.
    Generally speaking grade eight bolts are the same alloy as gr 5. They just harden the crap out of them to get the "strength" to call them grade 8. Hard = brittle. You will never find one on a real race car. Only AN and NAS hardware. A big advantage to this hardware is the unthreaded diameter is available in any length by 1/16" increments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Betcha Stan Fox was wishing like hell they'd at least gone to 5/16 on those ... and maybe added a third one

    Matti - look through the Beringer catalog. Several places note that stainless is for street, cast iron for "sporting" use. Of coure they buckled under to the fear of rust as well and added more stainless over time, but it's really not a good material for brakes.

    They are French, however, so .....
    You could have put 1" bolts in there and it would not have made any difference the tub broke in half. That's why his legs were bouncing on the track at 200 mph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonlight machine View Post
    You could have put 1" bolts in there and it would not have made any difference the tub broke in half.
    Jeeze, moon, work on your sense of humour a little, ok ? Obviously was a joke ... grim, but still. Are we ready for a Rich Vogler story ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MattiJ
    Everyone is promoting whatever they produce... Brembo promotes for stainless and sells stainless and so on.
    My point exactly, which is why I didn't pay much attention to the source you cited claiming stainless was wonderful.

    It's not. Look at the physical properties. Stainless is third-rate, but it doesn't rust. That's why it's popular, not because it makes a good brake material.

    For confirmation, look at cars, many of which brake much harder than bikes. I've never heard of even one car with stainless brake rotors. But they are hidden so no one cares.

    Brembo on the other hand is probably something like 100 times bigger company that spends more money on advertising alone.
    Yugo was 100 times bigger than McLaren. 'nuff said .... actually, I remember Grimeca, Scarab, and Brembo all being about the same in the aftermarket, second-best after Lockheed but way ahead of Hurst-Airheart. All of them better than Kelsey-Hayes, which is what op has. Brembo is the success of marketing and sales, not engineering.

    Cast iron kicks butt, stainless sucks nut - and stamped steel, which is what a 76 XLH has, might be the worst possible

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    what type of cast iron is used for brakes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dian View Post
    what type of cast iron is used for brakes?
    The ones I know of that work well are 80,000 psi Meehanite. Processing is also important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Jeeze, moon, work on your sense of humour a little, ok ? Obviously was a joke ... grim, but still. Are we ready for a Rich Vogler story ?
    How about you know any Danny Ongais stories?

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    Gentleman! You can't fight here, this is the War Room!

    Or the PM forum. Whatever. We can at least agree that making fun of Honda Hybrid F1 engines is appropriate, can't we?


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