Fly Tying Vise Jaws - Inserts?

Hi all!

I have been thinking of a new project for 3D printing. I am looking into a 3d printed fly tying vise.



My current issue is the jaw section of the vise,



While I would like to 3D print these in Metal. I am not going to get the surface finish I will need for hook holding capabilities on the inside of each jaw half.

My next thought is that there may be some sort of hard metal insert that I can screw/bolt to each side of the jaws near the tips were the hook would be located. The rest of the jaws could then be 3D printed.

My issue though is that I am not sure what I need to be looking for or if there is even a product out there already that could be those inserts? I would be great to use off the shelf items if at all possible. Id love to see if you all might have some feedback on what I might be able to use as an insert for the jaws?

Thanks all!

Chris,

Looks like a Renzetti rotary vise--pricey piece of gear!

Renzetti sells replacement vise jaws: Vise Jaws

I have a Regal Medallion vise, a less-expensive flavor but it gets the job done very nicely. Regal sells replacement heads that appear to include the entire clamping mechanism. Buy one of those and all you need to make yourself is the base and support arm: REGAL VISE CATALOG

The Regal jaw has a small channel milled out of one jaw to hold the hook properly: REGAL VISE HOOK ALIGNMENT Apart from that the surface finish doesn't appear to be anything special, I could easily achieve a similar finish by hand filing. If I were to make a fly-tying vise I would probably make replaceable soft jaws so as not to scratch or nick the hook and weaken it. Delrin would be a good choice for this, so would copper.

Sea Farmer said:

Looks like a Renzetti rotary vise--pricey piece of gear!

Renzetti sells replacement vise jaws: Vise Jaws

I have a Regal Medallion vise, a less-expensive flavor but it gets the job done very nicely. Regal sells replacement heads that appear to include the entire clamping mechanism. Buy one of those and all you need to make yourself is the base and support arm: REGAL VISE CATALOG

The Regal jaw has a small channel milled out of one jaw to hold the hook properly: REGAL VISE HOOK ALIGNMENT Apart from that the surface finish doesn't appear to be anything special, I could easily achieve a similar finish by hand filing. If I were to make a fly-tying vise I would probably make replaceable soft jaws so as not to scratch or nick the hook and weaken it. Delrin would be a good choice for this, so would copper.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply Sea Farmer. Those are just general photos to show folks what the vise & jaws are That is an interesting concept on replaceable soft jaws. Delrin seems to be super slippery though, do you think it could provide the clamp force or were you speaking of using inserts on the delrin in some sort of steel for the hook location?

other than the base, those parts are optimized for producing on automatic lathes - screw machines or hand turret lathes. It is hard to imagine you could beat the price 3D printing them; and certainly not beat the time.

smt

car2 said:

That application probably requires a fairly hard jaw for wear-resistance and clamping friction and strength, plastics would likely wear and be slippery; it's rather concentrated stress clamping down on hard wire. I don't know what alloys/surface-finish and resolution being contemplated, but it may be easier to perform a secondary machining operation to finish the jaws, provided the mechanical properties of the alloy are adequate. In fact, it may be that just machining the parts (eg stainless steel) would be less expensive and and yield better results, especially if secondary operations are needed on a rapid proto part; the part is not very complicated, and does not require a lot of material. Perhaps things like magnetizing the head for handling hooks, or having different sized/shaped jaw-ends that could be put on the same clamp would be "innovations" where time/cost is better spent. It would be difficult to mechanically insert just the jaw tips and keep them small (without more complexity), but could be brazed (some surgical instruments and various wire-clippers and other tools have carbide brazed-on inserts). Think I'd stick with one-piece designs, or maybe interchangeable whole end assemblies, not just the tip. (I'm not a fly-tier, $.02 opinions warranted for same...)

Click to expand...

I appreciate your feedback What I have available to me is a stainless steel type, said to be a 420 stainless with a final composition of about 60% steel, 40% bronze. I have spoken to a fellow that has done a 3d printed jaw setup that has worked for smaller hooks. Unfortunately not enough time on it to know if it wears well over time. I am waiting on a sample for layer striations on the 3D printed metal to see how it is. My concern is that the layer striations are large enough that hook holding abilities are greatly reduced as the hook just sits on the outer edge of each layer, missing all the clamping force in between each layer, this is were a secondary process would have to be used to smooth the jaw surface. This could or could not be easy. If its a 1 piece jaw a secondary process would be very difficult.

My other concern is designing a small enough jaw to keep costs down as large 3D printed metal parts can be quite costly. This will come with time though if this is the route I go. I know with the typical machined jaws on the market, the way the jaws come together, in my opinion would reduce hook holding abilities, because, as the jaw tips flex toward each other they are coming together at an angle and not parallel to each other. 3D printing a single piece jaw would allow me to design in an angle so that as the jaws come together they stay parallel to each other.

stephen thomas said:

other than the base, those parts are optimized for producing on automatic lathes - screw machines or hand turret lathes. It is hard to imagine you could beat the price 3D printing them; and certainly not beat the time.

smt

Click to expand...

Hi stephen. Appreciate the feedback. My initial thoughts on this project will be to offer a design to the Desktop 3D printing community. I am also considering a more commercial design utilizing high end 3D printing technologies. I do believe I can build a pretty good vise for less than it would cost to buy a comparable good vise although margins will be super small. This project does peak my curiosity with learning and understanding the higher end 3D printing technologies and could allow me a great opportunity to understand what is possible. The one thing I do enjoy is that you are not "forced" into a tool/die setup for 1 vise style. 3D printing can allow you to easily adopt the design, add accessories etc and roll out options/updates/accessories to market near instantly.

You are still correct though that it would be hard to be the automated production systems used currently.

The jaws on my Regal vise close parallel to each other. The clamping force is tremendous--it's sitting on my desk, and I just inserted a small hook in it and lifted the entire vise off the desk without the hook slipping. It weighs 4.8 lbs. I've never had a hook slip while tying.

I'm not understanding your description of how the striations affect clamping force.

Remember Lee Wulff used to hold size 28 hooks between his fingers and tie flies on them while flying his plane. . . .

Sea Farmer said:

The jaws on my Regal vise close parallel to each other. The clamping force is tremendous--it's sitting on my desk, and I just inserted a small hook in it and lifted the entire vise off the desk without the hook slipping. It weighs 4.8 lbs. I've never had a hook slip while tying.

I'm not understanding your description of how the striations affect clamping force.

Remember Lee Wulff used to hold size 28 hooks between his fingers and tie flies on them while flying his plane. . . .

Click to expand...

You'll have to forgive the photo, hard to get exactly what I wanted. But you can see how each layer is deposited on top of each other. If you look to the top left of the photo you can see how each layer has a curve on the outside of it, like it has bulged out.

My theory is that if there is say 1/8" of the jaws clamping the hook, because of the way each layer 'sticks out' lets say the hook will only be contacting 10 layers and only right at the outer most point of each layer instead of it being a completely flat surface and the hook having the entire 1/8" contact patch.

Hopefully that explains it, it is sort of a tricky one. If I didnt let me know and I can try to do a better job

Ok I get it now. Can you just change the orientation of the jaw shape in the printer so it gets printed with the clamping surface consisting of one striation? If not, grind or file it flat. Hand filing would seem to be the opposite end of the technology spectrum from 3D printing, but it works

Sea Farmer said:

Ok I get it now. Can you just change the orientation of the jaw shape in the printer so it gets printed with the clamping surface consisting of one striation? If not, grind or file it flat. Hand filling would seem to be the opposite end of the technology spectrum from 3D printing, but it works

Click to expand...

It could be possible to adjust orientation to have a complete surface printed on the jaw faces instead of the layer striations. To file the faces of the jaws could be an option for sure, my only concern would be getting into the jaw surfaces with a file if I print the jaws as one piece. Id need something super small to get in there.

The cadillac would be carbide inserts such as used on surgical needle drivers, you can buy stock here and use silver paste to solder them on.

Surgical Instrument Replacement Carbide Inserts | SignTech International

Next best would be diamond dust loaded silver solder paste, also used on surgical instruments and in the mining industries...would be the cheapest and easiest to implement.

Sea Farmer said:

The jaws on my Regal vise close parallel to each other. The clamping force is tremendous--it's sitting on my desk, and I just inserted a small hook in it and lifted the entire vise off the desk without the hook slipping. It weighs 4.8 lbs. I've never had a hook slip while tying.

I'm not understanding your description of how the striations affect clamping force.

Remember Lee Wulff used to hold size 28 hooks between his fingers and tie flies on them while flying his plane. . . .

Click to expand...

Ive also thought about using another vise's jaws as that would really simplify things. However, I may look at selling a few of these and so id have to look into the use of other companies jaws etc, of course, advertised as their jaws.

Not hijacking the thread. Back when I started to tie flies for saltwater use I want a Renzetti but was appalled at the price. Then the light bulb started to glow. Later with a pair of vice grips and some scrap steel strap annnd a bit of welding a flying tying vise appeared. Yes it was crude, and it took a bit of work on the jaws, think more welding and scrap. Final result a vise that hold everything from the smallest to a 12/0.

scojen said:

Not hijacking the thread. Back when I started to tie flies for saltwater use I want a Renzetti but was appalled at the price. Then the light bulb started to glow. Later with a pair of vice grips and some scrap steel strap annnd a bit of welding a flying tying vise appeared. Yes it was crude, and it took a bit of work on the jaws, think more welding and scrap. Final result a vise that hold everything from the smallest to a 12/0.

Click to expand...

The thread is about both fly tying and 3D printing, I don't think you're hijacking. I tie flies, don't know anything about 3D printing.

Renzetti's are beautiful and insanely expensive, they have a special edition now that costs around $1200. But I started with a $20 vise that worked just fine, and went to the Regal for the same reason you did, to hold larger hooks for saltwater. But I've tied them stream side just by sticking the hook into a tree branch too, that also works. A small hand vise would also work: McMaster-Carr

If I were routinely tying 12/0 hooks at a bench I would do exactly as you did. But I don't fly fish for whales anymore, last one I hooked took 12 months to land (Apologies to Red Green)

No worries guys, its all good. I am just trying to tackle this with 3D printing in mind. I definitely agree there are much simpler ways to achieve a good vise.

To keep things cheap for a desktop 3d printer ive been thinking of using an X-Acto collet piece although it will limit hook sizes.

4JawChuck said:

The cadillac would be carbide inserts such as used on surgical needle drivers, you can buy stock here and use silver paste to solder them on.

Surgical Instrument Replacement Carbide Inserts | SignTech International

Next best would be diamond dust loaded silver solder paste, also used on surgical instruments and in the mining industries...would be the cheapest and easiest to implement.

Click to expand...

I will defiantly remember this place.
Sometimes I need things like this.

I built a Nor-vise for my fly tying.That might be
fairly easy to set the jaws into a plastic head.
I used 410 s/s for my jaws.
Tied for a long time with just fingers, but then muddlers ,egg-sucking leeches and mickey finns are not too technical.

keithmech said:

I built a Nor-vise for my fly tying.That might be
fairly easy to set the jaws into a plastic head.
I used 410 s/s for my jaws.
Tied for a long time with just fingers, but then muddlers ,egg-sucking leeches and mickey finns are not too technical.

Click to expand...

Hi Keith,

Im not sure I follow you on what you were saying at the beginning, "I built a Nor-vise for my fly tying.That might be
fairly easy to set the jaws into a plastic head.
I used 410 s/s for my jaws."

well.the vise you showed would need to be made from fairly strong materials owing to the sections used.the nor-vise has a large body that
might work ok in plastic.the jaws could be made without the aid of
complex machine tools.(lathe/mill)the 410 s/s is a stainless steel alloy.

keithmech said:

well.the vise you showed would need to be made from fairly strong materials owing to the sections used.the nor-vise has a large body that
might work ok in plastic.the jaws could be made without the aid of
complex machine tools.(lathe/mill)the 410 s/s is a stainless steel alloy.

Click to expand...

Ahh ive got yah. If I can design the correct angle's etc I think the plastic/nylon will be strong enough. My concern with the SS jaws was just how smooth the clamp area would be, being 3d printed. I can orientate it to help but if I make them 1 piece and the faces need to be filed it will be tough

A little late, 6061 aluminum jaw inserts, pull into pockets with super small screws #2-#0 from the backside. Sort of like a carbide single point insert but with a tapped hole in the insert instead. The aluminum is soft enough to deform on any steel and get a decent grip.