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  1. #1
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    Default Garage shop, rust, wood shelves, oil wick fabric?

    Im starting to build some shelving behind my machines in my garage shop, using up some 3/4 plywood remnants. (More in a bit).



    Im in Napa, California, which is a relatively low humidity area, but my garage is uninsulated and is certainly not the best for humidity/moisture control and I do get some light surface rusting on exposed metal.

    Ive done some of my due diligence on searching and reading and will eventually look at painting my floor and adding insulation and contemplate getting a dehumidifier, or more likely an in-window air conditioner, as my shop is small and cramped and floorspace is at a premium.

    Now, back to the shelves:
    Im building shelves out of scrap/remnant plywood and lumber so I can have tooling out and visible, organized (daydreaming?) and quickly accessible.
    I was thinking of putting some sort of material or covering on the plywood that would absorb and hold oil, but hopefully have not much affinity for water.
    I mix kerosene and oil in a spray bottle as a cheapo alternative to LPS-3 and I often mist down tooling to keep it protected.

    Suggestions?
    Materials/fabrics? Felt?
    Better LPS-3 DIY recipe?

    Im open to Thats a terrible idea to have your tooling out on wood shelves! You should line your walls with Vidmar/Lista cabinets!, if it comes with a check for $25000 to buy said nice cabinets! :-)

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    Similar climate here. I found that when the shop gets to about 45 F condensation becomes a problem. I put a long golden rod heater in the base of my lathe. I plug it in when winter temps go below 45 or so.
    While trying to get one in the base of my mill/drill I accidentally found out how they are made. It is just thin wall conduit with a loop of heating wire down the length and back. Spot welded zip cord wire to the heating wire and a rubber cap at each end. No filler, no thermostat. You can buy heating wire on the bay with a fiberglass woven sleeve just watch ohms per foot, amps and voltage. I do have a thermostat I hope to in stall before next winter.
    I could not tell if the electric blanket worked or not. Modern ones turn off after 10 hours.
    My wood working tools are much thinner castings and have no rust issues. But, they are more in the middle and not on a northern exterior wall. My old house I used christmas lights in the citrus trees if it was going to be below 30F
    Bil lD

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    Oil soaked cloth shelf covering sounds like a horrible idea. Instant dirt collector. Paint the shelves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spruewell View Post
    Oil soaked cloth shelf covering sounds like a horrible idea. Instant dirt collector. Paint the shelves.
    Good point! Ok!

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    Default Garage shop, rust, wood shelves, oil wick fabric?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill D View Post
    Similar climate here. I found that when the shop gets to about 45 F condensation becomes a problem. I put a long golden rod heater in the base of my lathe. I plug it in when winter temps go below 45 or so.
    While trying to get one in the base of my mill/drill I accidentally found out how they are made. It is just thin wall conduit with a loop of heating wire down the length and back. Spot welded zip cord wire to the heating wire and a rubber cap at each end. No filler, no thermostat. You can buy heating wire on the bay with a fiberglass woven sleeve just watch ohms per foot, amps and voltage. I do have a thermostat I hope to in stall before next winter.
    I could not tell if the electric blanket worked or not. Modern ones turn off after 10 hours.
    My wood working tools are much thinner castings and have no rust issues. But, they are more in the middle and not on a northern exterior wall. My old house I used christmas lights in the citrus trees if it was going to be below 30F
    Bil lD
    Good idea!
    Where would you put the thermostat though? Im guessing youre actually talking about a temperature controller.
    What resistance ranges are good?
    Ill ho have a look on fleaBay

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpseguin View Post
    I’m starting to build some shelving behind my machines in my garage shop, using up some 3/4” plywood remnants. (More in a bit).



    I’m in Napa, California, which is a relatively low humidity area, but my garage is uninsulated and is certainly not the best for humidity/moisture control and I do get some light surface rusting on exposed metal.

    I’ve done some of my due diligence on searching and reading and will eventually look at painting my floor and adding insulation and contemplate getting a dehumidifier, or more likely an in-window air conditioner, as my shop is small and cramped and floorspace is at a premium.

    Now, back to the shelves:
    I’m building shelves out of scrap/remnant plywood and lumber so I can have tooling out and visible, organized (daydreaming?) and quickly accessible.
    I was thinking of putting some sort of material or covering on the plywood that would absorb and hold oil, but hopefully have not much affinity for water.
    I mix kerosene and oil in a spray bottle as a cheapo alternative to LPS-3 and I often mist down tooling to keep it protected.

    Suggestions?
    Materials/fabrics? Felt?
    Better LPS-3 DIY recipe?

    I’m open to “That’s a terrible idea to have your tooling out on wood shelves! You should line your walls with Vidmar/Lista cabinets!”, if it comes with a check for $25000 to buy said nice cabinets! :-)
    How about just "experience" that could SAVE you 25 large?

    - When the Loma Prieta hit, I was in the zone, had "stuff to do". Rather a lot of it. But Cable & Wireless's telco site was back online 3 whole days before the second-place winner, and did HQ ever brag about that!

    Not my ONLY rodeo. I've done Earthquake-resistant telco racks in KDDI Tokyo, and not-only. 30 years here in Virginia, I've had two 'quakes HERE as well.

    Here's how I'd do it. And have done, here, NOTHING attached (only) to a wall:

    - think wheeled units. "DIY" not Lista-priced. You can do this on-the-cheap.

    That are then tied to the deck and wall when not meant to be relocated. But in such a way the shaking has just enough resilience that neither player trashes the other.

    Foidermore.. if/as/ when you need acess to that wall, or want to re-organize, or need to move-house, especially if in a hurry.. everything is already "in readiness".

    Your basic "module" with the plywood is a box. Full-height or half-height, stacked two high "for now". Shelves adjustable. I like shiney-wood Ell and screwed-through rather that silly clips or pins. Don't CARE about "standard spacing". Needs to FIT MY s**t.

    Strong, rather, so the shelves add to the structural integrity, not just SIT there. I will not go over TWO FEET wide. The shelves want to sag, and reinforcing adds to the cost.

    Plan it right, yah can cut stock sheet with ZERO waste, and off the "one free cut per SKU" before yah even leave Big Box.

    Put shelves where yah need 'em. Move 'em when yah need to do that.

    NEVER, ever, EVER use particle board, OSB, nor MDF. "Real" wood. decent ply, or shiney-wood or steel only, and even the real-wood or ply stiffened with shiney-wood extrusion.

    We chickn's don't deal with no corn flakes nor feather pillows, do we? 'basically ALL or OUR s**t is heavy enough to sag a "household garage" type shelf, and "Real Soon, NOW".

    Rig a double and/or reinforced base. Add casters AND/OR skids for pallet-jack.

    Mate it to 'a' wall and add those resilient anchors.

    Size each "box" right, a half sheet of ACX ply fastened to the open front of it, some "stuffing", and off ya go laid on its back to move yer whole outfit to a new location with the goods right where they always were on new arrival.

    Or yer Executor selling-off the Estate, whichever comes first.

    DIY shelving built right to a bog-standard partition? In an Earthquake and FIRE zone?

    Izzat a DIY vibratory tumbler "on standby" or what?

    Spare me the agony, please.

    BTDTGTTS, never again, thanks!

    3CW

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Here's how I'd do it. And have done, here, NOTHING attached (only) to a wall:

    - think wheeled units. "DIY" not Lista-priced. You can do this on-the-cheap.

    That are then tied to the deck and wall when not meant to be relocated. But in such a way the shaking has just enough resilience that neither player trashes the other.

    Foidermore.. if/as/ when you need acess to that wall, or want to re-organize, or need to move-house, especially if in a hurry.. everything is already "in readiness".

    Your basic "module" with the plywood is a box. Full-height or half-height, stacked two high "for now". Shelves adjustable. I like shiney-wood Ell and screwed-through rather that silly clips or pins. Don't CARE about "standard spacing". Needs to FIT MY s**t.

    Strong, rather, so the shelves add to the structural integrity, not just SIT there.

    Put 'em where yah need 'em. Move 'em when yah need to do that.

    Rig a double and/or reinforced base. Add casters AND/OR skids for pallet-jack.

    Mate it to 'a' wall and add those resilient anchors.

    Size each "box" right, a half sheet of ACX ply fastened to the open front of it, some "stuffing", and off ya go laid on its back to move yer whole outfit to a new location with the goods right where they always were on new arrival.

    Or yer Executor selling-off the Estate, whichever comes first.

    DIY shelving built right to a bog-standard partition? In an Earthquake and FIRE zone?

    DIY vibratory tumbler or what?

    Spare me the agony, please.

    BTDTGTTS, never again, thanks!

    3CW
    I like that idea.

    I've built some heavy duty wheeled boxes out of 3/4" CDX before with big, beefy casters on them. They worked really well. I definitely get the concept that boxes are strong, that shearing adds tremendous strength.

    What sort of compliant anchoring are you talking about? I can research and have some notions, but am curious as to suggestions.

    In my first picture, that lathe is too close up to the wall to fit any kind of anything behind it, but the shelf I built there is "above it". I'm planning on putting a sheet metal chip/spray pan up there too.

    And, what do you mean by anchoring to the deck, besides just gravity...?


    I guess another alternative is that I could have less stuff... :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpseguin View Post
    What sort of compliant anchoring are you talking about?
    I had just commissioned a new multi-SCSI Novell server for our Burlingame office - eyeshot of the South gate of SFO airport.

    As a JOKE, I put it in the corner of the room and BUNGEE CORDED it to the wall, each side!

    West Coast Vee Pee had dragged me over to a realtor in the EAST Bay where we were when the Loma Prieta hit. Got back into the office? A Sugar Company HQ a few doors down was demolished. Our quarters, the whole building had been shifted four inches off its foundations, but wasn't condemned. Every bookcase or cabinet in the suite was on the floor, all the office desks had at least one of their legs broken off if not two or three.

    That fool bungee-corded Novell server was standin' tall, humming way, wondering when it's private nailed-up data link back to Washington HQ would come back to life!

    That part is how I ended up putting the whole already DEAD Telco site in the Fremont area back online!



    And, what do you mean by anchoring to the deck, besides just gravity...?
    Redhead. D-ring. Dog-chain or cable. Or Allthread to a sunken Redhead, big fat stack of rubber grommets in the cabinet base.

    Telco & FM sites, there are stout metal anchors down under the raised flooring at each rack "footprint" of the plan. Those were tied to the structure of an Earthquake-resistant building "as built" - KDDI Tokyo among the best-built I've ever seen amongst more than a dozen. But then they would be, yah?

    Our racks were Swiss-made at about ten-thou US$ each, but solid framed with a mating forged alloy ribbed baseplate already threaded for the tie-down link rod.

    "Bad s**t" happens when whole rows of electronics racks running serious power and critical banking and Goverment private network circuits do faceplants.

    We make that JF NOT happen!



    Why not just gravity? Well.... the rude bitch arguing with gravity IS throwing a friggin hissy-fit, ain't she?

    That's why we CALL it an "Earthquake", yah?

    All the rest goes to s**t if the cabinet base "walks" out four feet from the wall, then mebbe takes that wall DOWN? ...instead of bouncing pretty much back into the same place and stayin' mostly vertical!

    Boxes of cornflakes, ladie's underwear, cheap shos in some retail store? BFD.

    Shelves of chucks, arbors, drawers of drills or capscrews, 40-taper tooling, gallon or several of lube oils and solvents, paint strippers, steel bar stock, spare parts, vises, DH, and rotabs?

    OUR s**t gets deadly heavy. Even in small lots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I had just commissioned a new multi-SCSI Novell server for our Burlingame office - eyeshot of the South gate of SFO airport.

    As a JOKE, I put it in the corner of the room and BUNGEE CORDED it to the wall, each side!

    West Coast Vee Pee had dragged me over to a realtor in the EAST Bay where we were when the Loma Prieta hit. Got back into the office? A Sugar Company HQ a few doors down was demolished. Our quarters, the whole building had been shifted four inches off its foundations, but wasn't condemned. Every bookcase or cabinet in the suite was on the floor, all the office desks had at least one of their legs broken off if not two or three.

    That fool bungee-corded Novell server was standin' tall, humming way, wondering when it's private nailed-up data link back to Washington HQ would come back to life!

    That part is how I ended up putting the whole already DEAD Telco site in the Fremont area back online!


    Whoa! That must have been quite a day!
    Amusing that the bungeed rack was fine.
    Were you previously planning on taking the Bay Bridge back? :-)

    SCSI huh?
    We still have a bunch of old SCSI stuff sitting on shelves in one of our closets at my work. I think we probably have a couple hundred pounds of just SCSI cables. Maybe I could use those as the tether/anchor? :-)


    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Redhead. D-ring. Dog-chain or cable. Or Allthread to a sunken Redhead, big fat stack of rubber grommets in the cabinet base.
    Ok.
    That's kind of what I was thinking. Some sort of flexible tether, but without too much slack.


    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Telco & FM sites, there are stout metal anchors down under the raised flooring at each rack "footprint" of the plan. Those were tied to the structure of an Earthquake-resistant building "as built" - KDDI Tokyo among the best-built I've ever seen amongst more than a dozen. But then they would be, yah?

    Our racks were Swiss-made at about ten-thou US$ each, but solid framed with a mating forged alloy ribbed baseplate already threaded for the tie-down link rod.

    "Bad s**t" happens when whole rows of electronics racks running serious power and critical banking and Goverment private network circuits do faceplants.

    We make that JF NOT happen!



    Why not just gravity? Well.... the rude bitch arguing with gravity IS throwing a friggin hissy-fit, ain't she?

    That's why we CALL it an "Earthquake", yah?

    All the rest goes to s**t if the cabinet base "walks" out four feet from the wall, then mebbe takes that wall DOWN? ...instead of bouncing pretty much back into the same place and stayin' mostly vertical!

    Boxes of cornflakes, ladie's underwear, cheap shos in some retail store? BFD.

    Shelves of chucks, arbors, drawers of drills or capscrews, 40-taper tooling, gallon or several of lube oils and solvents, paint strippers, steel bar stock, spare parts, vises, DH, and rotabs?

    OUR s**t gets deadly heavy. Even in small lots.
    Yeah.
    Definitely don't need heavy falling over in there.
    One problem with my garage floor is that I'm not sure if there's rebar in it or not. My house was built in 1962.
    The driveway definitely does NOT have rebar in it...
    I added a few more cracks when the rigger rolled my 8000 pound small VMC over it with their 25000 pound forklift...
    Once it was in the door, we skated the VMC into place.
    I had to move some stuff into the driveway to get it out of the way.
    There was a lot of rubbernecking happening on my street for a while that day!

    There's a few small cracks in my garage floor.
    I guess I could use anchor epoxy to strengthen any anchoring bolts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpseguin View Post
    Were you previously planning on taking the Bay Bridge back? :-)
    Nah. SF & Marin County, thence to the North were really Old News by then. I lodged in San Mateo, hung out at "The Vans".

    Asked the owner if he'd lost much. Not one glass or bottle save the sole and only wineglass he intentionally crushed on the floor as sympathy for a friend in Redwood City. Who had lost ALL his bottled goods and bar glassware.

    RC is on a liquescent MUD flat, and rolled like the North Sea!
    The Vans sat atop the solid rock of the San Brunos. As did my lodgings.

    Dodgy concrete floors are best "repaired" with wet diamond saws and demolition hammers, re-placing or re-compacting the subgrade, pouring new 'crete to suit the new needs.

    Cheaper than it sounds, if only because it is so straighforward simple, the materials are cheap, and the alleged floor you have is so trivial to demo.

    All else is more expensive masturbation than genuine "fix". May as well "run what yah got" and monkey-patch now and then.

    Typical "garage" floor is about eight-inches thinner that what the most basic of machine-halls want, and the subgrade prep - which is MEANT to carry the load - is absolutely useless.

    MY one is golden only because the PO who built it was a paving company seniour executive!

    None of MY bizness, but the "cost of excellence" may not even have hit his family budget?


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    If it were me, I would paint the shelves and install a dehumidifier from Home Depot.

    One, two, done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipSplitter View Post
    If it were me, I would paint the shelves and install a dehumidifier from Home Depot.

    One, two, done.
    White .. or pale yellow - Melamine or Formica laminate "rules". But commercially comes too-often on saggy-flakey particles-of-shite substrate.

    Sooo. there are online vendors who will ship yah whole crates and boxes of cut to stock sizes Baltic Birch.

    The proof is here, but still in the cartons! "Someday" I'll get off my ass and get the contact cement and the laminate trimmer out...

    Meanwhile... our local "Pier One Imports" went tits-up.

    Bought a few steel and laminate "store display" units they USE, not sell. 10EE spares are now up off the deck.

    Spare ABS, air-suspension 'pressor, yadda yadda plus a set of alloys with new rubber for the Jaguar now nicely stored as well.

    Keep an eye out for distressed brick-and-mortar retailers near yah?

    Store display equipment is waaay better-built than the crap sold for furnishing homes.

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    Install dehumidifier, keep relative humidity below 50%, and you'll never get rust, shelving doesn't matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    Install dehumidifier, keep relative humidity below 50%, and you'll never get rust, shelving doesn't matter.
    Yah think? Have no rust issues, no need of oils or spray or dessicants, Northern Virginia coastal "jungle".

    Pull the stats off "KIAD" Dulles International Airport - 5 miles, straight line, yah think it's a dry climate.

    Have a de-hum. Haven't had to run it in easily ten years. Prolly has died of neglect?

    Shelves here discourage "condensing humidity". So do the drawer units with a page of "VPI" paper under the liner that yah can buy cheaply in rolls and various sizes of pre-cut sheets.

    So does my control of make-up air and the attic and venting ABOVE the shop.

    Cheap and cheerful combination.

    Works a right treat at minimal energy out of pocket costs.

    Cheating like Hell of course.

    School-trained in all this shit as well as years of commercial "FM" responsibility as at least a side-duty. Some of the training at taxpayer expense. The rest paid by the/a company.

    Damndest thing?

    Unlike a company car, I didn't have to "turn in" what I knew and leave it behind when I moved-on!


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    Trash can the LPS, go with Boeshield T9, you will have no more rust issues.

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    Ya sure, still need a little lubricant here and there, but in general, humidity control has worked wonders for me. My shop is on top of Mt Tamalpais in Marin County, VERY HUMID 24x7, and dehumidifier has kept the rust away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    Ya sure, still need a little lubricant here and there, but in general, humidity control has worked wonders for me. My shop is on top of Mt Tamalpais in Marin County, VERY HUMID 24x7, and dehumidifier has kept the rust away.
    LOL! Lovely area. Or it used to be.

    Some parts of it the good news is the Vista of San Fran across the bay.

    The bad news is that it IS San Fran, and as it is now, not back in the day, and too damned CLOSE!

    "Condensing fog" area. I remember the old saw that the coldest winters were summers in San Fran with The Presidio the only US Army Post where winter uniform was authorized 12 months of the year. Navy, "Treasure Island" - (only visited the one time) - wuddna been much different?



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    I am down in Santa Cruz so not that far away but I am within a mile of the ocean so every night it gets wet. I had bought a gable fan with a humidistat and installed it up in the peak area but that ended up being a waste because every night the moist air would turn it on and it would empty the air from the garage and the temp would plummet. That is very bad. Temp change is your enemy.

    I use to spend the entire winter (well as winter as it gets here) praying there were none of those really cold nights were the next morning the sun would come out. Instant moisture on everything. My No.4 Cincinnati looked like there was a waterfall on the side. I ended up pointing a heater inside it to try to keep it warm. This was a serious nightmare as I hate messy, rusty tools.

    The solution was actually much simpler than you would think. Once I realized the key was just not letting it get that cold (or hot) in the first place. Here are the two things I did that solved the problem completely.

    I insulated the roof of the garage. Didn't do the walls initially becuase it was a pain and not that cheap. That fixed half of it.

    The second thing I did was just leave the door of the garage open to the house. There is a laundry room there so it didn't effect the temperature of the house at all. To be honest I didn't think it would really help.

    I was wrong, those two things and even when the outside temperature hit 30 the garage never went under 50. That was enough of a buffer that even when it hit 70 the next day nothing condensed and rusted.

    You could of course just put a heater out there at night. Remember you don't have to keep it comfy warm, just warm enough to keep your machines above the dewpoint. It takes a lot less than you think.

    Since then I added a shop in back doubling the size of my space and it has a mini-split that keeps it as hot or cold as I like and also dehumidifies but that wasn't particularly cheap.

    But one weekend of putting up insulation and leaving the door open to the house was a cheap fast way to completely solve a really annoying rust problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxian View Post
    I am down in Santa Cruz so not that far away but I am within a mile of the ocean so every night it gets wet. I had bought a gable fan with a humidistat and installed it up in the peak area but that ended up being a waste because every night the moist air would turn it on and it would empty the air from the garage and the temp would plummet. That is very bad. Temp change is your enemy.

    I use to spend the entire winter (well as winter as it gets here) praying there were none of those really cold nights were the next morning the sun would come out. Instant moisture on everything. My No.4 Cincinnati looked like there was a waterfall on the side. I ended up pointing a heater inside it to try to keep it warm. This was a serious nightmare as I hate messy, rusty tools.

    The solution was actually much simpler than you would think. Once I realized the key was just not letting it get that cold (or hot) in the first place. Here are the two things I did that solved the problem completely.

    I insulated the roof of the garage. Didn't do the walls initially becuase it was a pain and not that cheap. That fixed half of it.

    The second thing I did was just leave the door of the garage open to the house. There is a laundry room there so it didn't effect the temperature of the house at all. To be honest I didn't think it would really help.

    I was wrong, those two things and even when the outside temperature hit 30 the garage never went under 50. That was enough of a buffer that even when it hit 70 the next day nothing condensed and rusted.

    You could of course just put a heater out there at night. Remember you don't have to keep it comfy warm, just warm enough to keep your machines above the dewpoint. It takes a lot less than you think.

    Since then I added a shop in back doubling the size of my space and it has a mini-split that keeps it as hot or cold as I like and also dehumidifies but that wasn't particularly cheap.

    But one weekend of putting up insulation and leaving the door open to the house was a cheap fast way to completely solve a really annoying rust problem.
    Pretty close to what works for me, save that the annex has a sort of "airlock" barrier with 90-minute rated steel fire doors on self-closing ball-bearing spring hinges isolating it from the residence - either two in succession, or three.

    Uber-insulated so that incandescent lamps in the ceiling fixtures, on 24 X 7, cold months, were winter chill-beaters, LED's, same fixtures, less heat, summertime.

    The 3000/5000 Watt electric "garage" heaters weren't needed until I got ACTIVE and had an 18-foot wide door opening and closing a lot more often.

    Otherwise, once a "charge" of air, full volume, is trapped, it has no more new moisture arriving.

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    Allow me to point out that open shelves are a bad idea in a shop, particularly behind a lathe or mill. Whether door or curtain, some type of front screen to keep chips and dust out is desirable.

    I've taken to simply oiling raw wood. I have a good supply of reclaimed CNC way oil. Makes for a nice, water resistant finish that is easily renewed. Getting ready to do my 3/4 ply work bench.

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