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Height of bit above center clarification

kd0afk

Hot Rolled
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Fort Bragg, Ca
I was reading "how to run a lathe" this morning and it says that for threading operations the bit should be level with the axis of the work but for straight turning it should be 5 degrees above center. I was under the impression that the cutter should be level or a bit lower.
Why the 5 degrees? Wouldn't that require the bevel of the tool do the cutting? Kind of confused.
 
On or below center for OD turning.
On or above center for ID boring.

Just think about it before you post back here
saying, But Blah bla blah bla...

--Doozer
 
This is a question that probably should be asked over in the South Bend forum. Not only is it in regard to South Bend's book, but also the OP has a South Bend.

HTRAL requires that you apply the information to various applications, and as Bill points out, there are a lot of variables.

I posted about this over in the South Bend forum, but just wanted to point out here that there are a lot of different lathes that do different work. HTRAL is a kinda generic text for many of those which South Bend had in their product line, IMO.

I just got a book by Warner Swasey, "Turret Lathe Operators Manual" and they show how small diameters require more clearance to cut 5 degrees above center, as well as having a larger back rake. I had just mentioned this in a HTRAL thread (SB forum) in regards to my SB9. HTRAL is a generic reference that needs to be applied, IMO. The WS book shows how small diameter (1") is more critical to get more clearance if you want to cut 5 degrees over center. Also the back rake is less if cutting on center, opposed to cutting 5 degrees above. In comparison they show how it doesn't really matter when your cutting a 10" diameter, "not so important" in their own words. I spent quite a bit of trial and error cutting material to figure this out, but it was good for confirmation and to know EXACTLY why more clearance is needed. It was what I concluded, about clearance when you go above center, but now I know why much better. HTRAL didn't make that clear for me, it was trying to apply the text in the real world that showed me how it worked, but the WS book explained to me why, so that I could understand it.

Don't forget to test what you learn. It is all about getting decent chips at the end of the day.

Without applying the information in the text, it is nothing more than another piece of arm chair text.

Interesting that my edition of HTRAL is from '42. I can't really find too much information about carbide tooling. In another book from Cincinnati, "A Treatise on Milling and Milling Machines" published in '45, there is much more information on carbide tooling, as an example. I'm not so sure that those dates has too much to do with it though, and I think it's just that HTRAL is very dated material. Yes, it is applicable as it is basic and sound information, but it needs to be applied to the work being done, the machine doing it on, material being used, lubricant/coolant, tooling, etc...

Cheers,
Alan
 
Keep in mind also, that a turning tool with nose radius and side rake will have a finishing point BELOW center if the tool is ON center.

Ed P
 
I'm just a normal guy who has been running lathes 40 years or so of 48, was always taught on center from day one. Below center if the situation dictates that for some reason (talking OD work here). And radius and top rake will not change the "on center" situation if you set the tool up the way many do, by pinching a scale between the work and the tool ?

Bill
 
Keep in mind also, that a turning tool with nose radius and side rake will have a finishing point BELOW center if the tool is ON center.

Ed P


We are all talking about the cutting tip of the tool with respect to the center line of the lathe.
Side rake effects chip formation and flow.
--Doozer
 
Well Bill, at 48 years old many of us are not THAT far removed from those lineshaft days, guys in their 70's who I worked with in the early 80's learned from THOSE guys. I think the first inserted cutting tool I used was a neative rake square insert milling cutter geared towards Knee mills, and that was in the late 70's. There were HSS boring bars that took an insert...but cutting geometry was similar to what a HSS solid boring bar would be.

Many folks never really explore how going to an insert mechanically clamped into place alters the function of the tool, some positive benefits, and some handicaps come along with that. The handicaps tend to show up with drills a lot, but endmills too.

Heck we have some serious debate about whether a "machinist" should have or benefit from the knowledge of hand grinding a drill ;-). Let alone laying out and hand grinding a form tool :-)...or even grinding an HSS tool.

It is good that people are THINKING about this stuff though, I take that as a positive sign :-).

Bill
 
More than 50 years but ... ISTR there is an illustration in that book right at that point that shows a line tilting up at a few degrees, so no, it isn't tool top-rake they mean. Many other variables in that.

More likely the intent is to compensate for the work to want to climb, the tool to be more subject to being forced downward as the radius, therefore the lever-arm, increases its force on both.

I've always taken it as a conceptual guideline only, and one most appropriate to lightly-built lathes, lantern toolposts, and overhung Armstrong tool-holders.

Heavier machines with stiffer toolup overall, one adapts to and sets up as required to make a given combination work best............

Bill
Not to be contradictory Bill but if I understood you (or the book) correctly......

....in my experience and given ideal tool geometry and sharpness, (don't we always try?), with "lightly-built lathes" on a long reach, it is crucial to set the contact point no higher than center and a touch below for safety.

When set even a tick above center, the trajectory of a tool point that has the potential to flex under the downward thrust of turning, is into the work, all bad, no good.

There is nothing about the tool contact point being "wrapped down around" the part, (slightly below center) that hurts an ideal penetration into the work and lift of the chip, that can't be compensated for with a little additional top rake re-establishing the included angle.

Conversely, bore work demands a slightly high contact point to direct any potential flexure away from the part, the bending moment of the cutting tool support amplified by the additional reach of the bar.

The theory of setting the cutting point even slightly high in a pre-emptive attempt to "take out the lash" or "buttress" against anticipated flexure, is analogous to the tendency of amateur shooters to push forward and down before squeezing one off, gouging into the dirt, rather than cutting straight into the target.

When a tool's support assembly flexes under the pressure of the cut, that signals just one thing, the pressure generated by excessive depth of cut under the circumstances, overcame the equipments ability to resist. With that in mind, the obvious thing to do is to reduce the depth of cut, because lashing out in frustration over the lathes lack of rigidity wont fix it and like the shooter, pre-setting a down-and-in trajectory, won't improve the accuracy.

When you've adjusted the depth of cut to not overcome the stiffness of that particular set up, it's nice to just have to skim off the slight smooth bulges created when the tool flexed away, rather than scrap the part because you gouged into the stuff you wanted to keep.

Now, if I had one of them super lathes, I'd just jam in most any ol' kind of tool, wherever I wanted and join the lathes laughter at the expence of the parts pain..... hell, I'd purposely pick way over-sized material, giving me enough to make smokin' blue 6's and 9's with, just 'cuz.

A feller don't even need to walk clear across the shop and look at the lathe, to tell that it's super, after he's dug a 2 ounce, smokin' blue chip from between his collar and neck!

Bob
Now I didn't get that stuff from a book and maybe I've just gotten away with it while doing the wrong thing and then making up stuff that isn't true to explain it....cause and effect not always revealed accurately, to all... I'm serious about that and willing to listen.

UPDATE: OK Bill, just checked to see if anything had been added since I got called away while typing this and found an absolute jewel: "There are fewer things that are 'absolute' than we think there are," oh yeah, that was you!
 
Bob, your "flex down and into the work under cutting pressure" is only partially correct. This is a three dimensional problem. Bit rake and tip radius, work material/bit friction characteristics, work shear angle, machine and work rigidity in three dimensions, and more I'm sure. Point is your description is simplistic. That's why Bill states "fewer things are absolute than we think."
 
Bob, your "flex down and into the work under cutting pressure" is only partially correct. This is a three dimensional problem. Bit rake and tip radius, work material/bit friction characteristics, work shear angle, machine and work rigidity in three dimensions, and more I'm sure. Point is your description is simplistic. That's why Bill states "fewer things are absolute than we think."
Stroker, I come out of the box with, "...given ideal tool geometry and sharpness, (don't we always try?)" I suppose that I could have added your "Bit rake and tip radius, work material/bit friction characteristics, work shear angle, machine and work rigidity" but my "given ideal tool geometry" very simply says, all other, (includes considering all in your vague litany) has been discarded as less than this ideal.

It is not simplistic to step over as much irrelevant minutia as possible by starting at the end condition. However, I still may have been simplistic, I just don't know where.

Before I'll construct a potential colliding geometric condition, I would require a cogent argument as to the benefits of such a counterintuitive move, showing that in some way, the possibility of collision had been taken to a low % of probability by some additive feature, all made worthwhile by substantial improvement in operation that could not be accomplished while retaining a collision proof geometry.

One of those could be, "get a super duty lathe" but for most, that's not a useful suggestion.

None of this means that I haven't been dippy and tried to buck the rational, a lot, but that's me, not to be confused with my public rationale.

Bob
 
Sure helps if you can lock-down the cross-slide. But that isn't common on ordinary pass-after-pass turning. There was often enough backlash on the worn-out old 'heavies' I had under hand to allow a tool to walk a good quarter-inch down the bad-news axis - mass of cross-slide and 4-way or no.

Standard stance to have left hand on feed and right hand leaning back on the 4-way lock-down lever. Not so much to 'fight' it, as to better 'feel' what was up, as early-on as could be.



Thanks, but I've had my share of smokin' curlies, thanks to Niles-Bement and sputniks.

Bought the 10EE as 'revenge'. Hoping just for a while before I sign-off, to have once again enjoyed a machine that was paying attention instead of trying to disfigure metal on a whim or beat me into submission. As-had, the cross-slide still has gobs of backlash. But we shall see...

Bill
Sounds like you're one-up on most Bill and most is jealous! Got faith in you, to get her totally tuned up to good work before you sign-off, you know, for the next guy......

Bob
 
We are all talking about the cutting tip of the tool with respect to the center line of the lathe.
Side rake effects chip formation and flow.
--Doozer

And just where is this "magic" point?
Actual tip, or where the chip is thickest? How about if you use a honed insert? Change radius size and the holder height changes.
If you make tool holders you will quickly find out different manufactures call out the "H" dim at differing points and you need to be aware of which is which if you don't want a hundred holders coming back with a big red tag. :wall:

To me outside of screwing up the calibration on the cross slide or if you are cutting to a zero dia. there is no "centerline" on a lathe.
There is simply a line from the center of the part to the tool tip contact point and a top and clearance rake that results from this line in space.
Since the standard 5-7 degree front is often more than needed on steel it is fairly common to raise the tool which cuts freer and shifts the wear from the top to the flank.
Side clearance of course varies with feed rate, not much you can do here outside of special holders.
I have customers on very small stuff that will raise the holder to the point at which it actually rubs as the reduced dia starts to dampen chatter at full depth. This is very touchy and needs good controlled stock size, holders, and insert heights.

Bob
 
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