Help in Identifying Finishing Technique on Silver Watch Dial

Hello,

I'm trying to replicate the surface finish/color of this silver dial. Because of it's tarnish resistant properties, I believe the dial is made from .999 fine silver but I could be wrong. The manufacturer states that the dial is solid silver. Since there are no sanding marks/grain, I cannot determine if this was sanded, electroplated or perhaps bead blasted. I'd greatly appreciate any help that you'd be able to provide.

Also, if anyone has a company that may be able to assist, I appreciate recommendations.

Thanks.

rvn said:

Hello,

I'm trying to replicate the surface finish/color of this silver dial. Because of it's tarnish resistant properties, I believe the dial is made from .999 fine silver but I could be wrong. The manufacturer states that the dial is solid silver. Since there are no sanding marks/grain, I cannot determine if this was sanded, electroplated or perhaps bead blasted. I'd greatly appreciate any help that you'd be able to provide.

Also, if anyone has a company that may be able to assist, I appreciate recommendations.

Thanks.

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jewelry makers supply companies have all sorts of polishing supplies.
.
some mild stuff like bonami abrasive cleanser is soft to normally not scratch metal or at least not harder metals

Get a copy of the book Watchmaking by George Daniels. the information you need to put that finish on is in there.

modern jewelry maker uses modern abrasives like cratex rubber abrasives.
.
basically its like using pencil eraser its got some abrasive mixed in the rubber
.
buffing wheels tend to be soft and conform to part, nylon abrasive and rubber abrasive are a little harder but takes a lot to make a groove. obviously a hard aluminum oxide grinding wheel will easily distort part and change its shape
.
bonami mild abrasive cleanser on a damp rag is meant to be a mild cleaner and normally will not scratch. there are also micron abrasive tissue paper. like sandpaper but its colored tissue paper and the ultra fine abrasive is so fine you need the color coating to tell what grit it is.
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all sorts of modern polishing stuff

SIP6A said:

Get a copy of the book Watchmaking by George Daniels. the information you need to put that finish on is in there.

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Thanks, I have his book. Unless I'm missing something, he discusses how to achieve a whiter color from the silver, but doesn't not address what finishing techniques are applied to the surface. For example from the book:

"With a blow torch played uniformly over the surface of the dial raise it to a dull red heat. Allow to cool and then place in a dilute solution of hot sulphuric acid...If the dial is not completely clean, wash away the acid, dry the surface and repeat the process."

That may BE the finishing technique. That surface does have an etched appearance. I doubt that it was produced with a mechanical process, especially as you say it is tarnish resistant. Mechanically polished silver tarnishes rapidly.

I got out my copy of Daniels book on watchmaking and read up on dial making. The only thing he says about finishing is at the beginning of that section he says "Clean both sides with a water-of-Ayr stone to produce an overall circular grain."

Unfortunately water-of-Ayr stones haven't been available for years, the last ones I got were from a material dealer in the Clerkenwell district of London and I got the last ones he had. (this was in 2001)

If you were to contact Gesswein and explained what you wanted to to they could recommend the correct modern stone for what you want to do.

Electropolished? With a small grain electropolishing would leave the appearance of no grain and a perfectly smooth surface but I don’t know if that’s a common thing to do to silver I know we do it to stainless and the parts come out like perfect mirrored surfaces

Do not use any mechanical or abrasive approach as it will ruin the fine finish and spoil the dial. And harsh chemicals, like acid, can damage the numerals. To remove surface tarnish from silver the best way is to use a warm, mild backing soda solution in an aluminum container or with a piece of aluminum present. Dipping the dial for a few minutes should do the trick. However...most dial have a protective lacquer that needs to be removed first. This can be done by dipping in a lacquer thinner or acetone. Again, depending on the form of the chapter ring and numerals this can damage those if just printed on the dial, rather than engraved or applied. If printed, best is not to do anything or to send the dial to professional dial restores that can re-print the details after cleaning. This is an expensive procedure that requires the dial text and ring to be engraved exactly as in the original on a blank piece of brass or steel and then pad-printed on the cleaned dial. Restores used to have a stock of hundreds of the engraved masters for various dials, but I am not sure who is still doing it today.

SIP6A said:

I got out my copy of Daniels book on watchmaking and read up on dial making. The only thing he says about finishing is at the beginning of that section he says "Clean both sides with a water-of-Ayr stone to produce an overall circular grain."

Unfortunately water-of-Ayr stones haven't been available for years, the last ones I got were from a material dealer in the Clerkenwell district of London and I got the last ones he had. (this was in 2001)

If you were to contact Gesswein and explained what you wanted to to they could recommend the correct modern stone for what you want to do.

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Are you talking about a black stone or a speckled white stone? Having done a bit of research on many of the stones historically used for straight razor honing, I can say that the name "Water of Ayr" was used on both stones at certain times. Later, the Water of Ayr name was reserved for the finer black stone, and the speckled white stones were afterward called Tam O' Shanter. The Tam O' Shanter stones are frequently available on eBay, often labeled and N.O.S. in various sizes. There are a few up for sale right now in fact. They were a popular stone for silversmiths. Water of Ayr stones are much more scarce, and are supposed to be finer. I have used a Tam O' Shanter stone but never a Water of Ayr. Tams are a little bit more of a mid-grit stone but they have a very soft action and don't leave deep scratches, probably why the silversmiths liked them.

So here is a later labeled Tam O'Shanter:



That in this earlier version was called "Water of Ayr" (the top stone, don't know what the bottom one is).



And then the final stone called Water of Ayr, which is how the stones are currently called. Technically the Tams could also be called Water of Ayr since they were once named so.



All of these versions were sold by one company. Interestingly (to me anyway) the mine is still there but it's defunct. There's an old man who lives at the property that used to sell stones but he hasn't done so for many years. There is still quite a pile of raw cut stone laying around - I saw photos from someone who visited the old fellow a few years ago.

While not available in the US WOA stones can still be purchased in the UK . It is also called Tam o shanter . Bill

I have used cream of tartar to clean white frosted silver watch dials. Mix the powder with a few drops of water to make a thick paste. Rub this paste over the entire dial. Rinse well after cleaning

SIP6A said:

Water-of-Ayr stones and Tam O'Shanter stones are not the same thing. I have used both to polish. A Water-of Ayr stone is both finer and softer than a Tam O'Shanter stone. A Water-of-Ayr stone is almost uniformly gray in color and has a slick feeling almost like soapstone. You can file it very easily. Tam O'Shanter on the other hand is harder and is gray with black specks and feels smooth to the touch.

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I thought that was pretty clear in my post? Both stones were at some point called Water of Ayr. At some point (I forget the year - way back) the company that produced and sold the stones publicly announced that the stones formerly known as Water of Ayr (white or gray stone with darker speckles) would henceforth be called Tam O' Shanter stones and that only inferior stone would from then on be called Water of Ayr. At some later point they also introduced the more modern Water of Ayr - and that is the black stone.

Here you go, 1884:

eKretz said:

Here you go, 1884:

View attachment 247368

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That's interesting, where did it come from?

From an old British horological journal.

SIP6A said:

I got out my copy of Daniels book on watchmaking and read up on dial making. The only thing he says about finishing is at the beginning of that section he says "Clean both sides with a water-of-Ayr stone to produce an overall circular grain."

Unfortunately water-of-Ayr stones haven't been available for years, the last ones I got were from a material dealer in the Clerkenwell district of London and I got the last ones he had. (this was in 2001)

If you were to contact Gesswein and explained what you wanted to to they could recommend the correct modern stone for what you want to do.

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Thank you to everyone who has commented. I appreciate your time.

I saw this reference to water of Ayr stone as well, however, this is not the finishing technique that creates the finish in the photos I attached. If you continue to the next sentence (After the one you reference), the water of Ayr stone is used to produce a circular grain on the silver so that lines can be scribed to layout the cuts on the dial (and other markings for engine turning). As someone else has mentioned, I believe the right method of finishing (to achieve my original question) is to heat the metal and dip it into sulphuric acid afterwards. I have purchased the supplies and will experiment with this technique. Thank you again for everyone's help.

rvn said:

Thank you to everyone who has commented. I appreciate your time.

I saw this reference to water of Ayr stone as well, however, this is not the finishing technique that creates the finish in the photos I attached. If you continue to the next sentence (After the one you reference), the water of Ayr stone is used to produce a circular grain on the silver so that lines can be scribed to layout the cuts on the dial (and other markings for engine turning). As someone else has mentioned, I believe the right method of finishing (to achieve my original question) is to heat the metal and dip it into sulphuric acid afterwards. I have purchased the supplies and will experiment with this technique. Thank you again for everyone's help.

Click to expand...

In the Daniels book you will read that he uses the Water-of-Ayr stone to do most of his finishing on non ferrous metals. When you do the heat and acid process your going to find that the heat and acid will change the surface finish. To get a finish your going to be happy with your going to have to experiment with various surface finishes before you do the heat and acid treatment. The heat and acid treatment is what puts the finish on that you see in the book.

Keep us informed as to how this all works out for you.