How do I measure included angles on VERY small parts?
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    Default How do I measure included angles on VERY small parts?

    I just acquired a bunch of watchmaker tools and parts. They are incredibly small. Some of the tools are missing pieces that I will have to fabricate.

    My traditional method of measurement (sine block) isn't practical because the tools are so tiny that:
    1) the pieces fall on the floor and get lost
    2) the pieces are so small that I need a magnifier to see them and holding them with tweezers interferes with seeing the air gap

    Suggestions?


    Gary

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    work over a tray (like darkroom chemical tray)with cloth in tray or a bench with wood strips on edges. keeps bouncing and rolling stuff from falling to floor
    .
    some use tapered plug gages and blue up and put in a turn gage and pull out. can see by blueing the contact pattern

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    Hi Gary:
    Can you get access to a Shadowgraph?

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    Hi Gary:
    Can you get access to a Shadowgraph?

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Or a tool maker's microscope with suitable reticule

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    > Can you get access to a Shadowgraph?

    I wish! The last time I saw one of those was in 1974 (prior to the Digital age version).

    It was at the University. The Department that owned it was disbanded in 1997 and all of the tools and equipment were sold or scrapped.

    Gary

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    Quote Originally Posted by garyrice View Post
    I just acquired a bunch of watchmaker tools and parts. They are incredibly small. Some of the tools are missing pieces that I will have to fabricate.

    My traditional method of measurement (sine block) isn't practical because the tools are so tiny that:
    1) the pieces fall on the floor and get lost
    2) the pieces are so small that I need a magnifier to see them and holding them with tweezers interferes with seeing the air gap

    Suggestions?


    Gary
    Part shapes one does with optics. Non-contact is essential, delicate as they are. DIY or adapt sumthin' if you must do.

    As to them getting loose?

    Have a look at purpose-built watch repair, jeweler/goldsmith, or diamond and coloured stone "setter"'workbenches in the trade catalogs.

    Slightly different, each, but all have a sort of wrap-around well to work in plus lap trays and/or framed muslin to reduce bounce or catch stuff.

    You can DIY something similar in effect cheaply enough with ignorant drawer hardware for the catchment and folding side shields to restrict bounce.

    NB: Formica or Micarta had a colour ISTR was called "Primrose Yellow". After experiments with the "recommended" greys and greens, we found it much better for revealing where insanely tiny parts had gotten to and equipped a whole Hearing aid factory with it.

    Mind - that it made the grumpy-arse IBEW staff ordinarily spring-loaded in the cranky position a tad less grumpy helped as well!


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    For 20-100 bucks you can get a USB microscope type thing on E-bay. A proper and a stand maybe 200-600 so that is spending money outside of pocket change.
    You want one with the measuring software included and better yet a calibration slide.
    One picks points with a mouse on a screen with such so you want a hi-res and preferably big monitor. Can you pick one pixel on your screen?

    Somebody should write a app to do this with a 10 dollar cellphone and high mag lens attachment. Added that you have bluetooth back to the computer or machine tool.
    Bob

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    Optical comparator?

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmagpie View Post
    Optical comparator?
    Felt a need to duplicate implmex or do not know what a Shadowgraph is?
    Bob

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    Overhead projector. Check eBay or Craig's list. With computer projectors in most institutions, these are being dumped.
    Ken

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    I do it with a toolmaker's microscope as suggested before. If you don't have one, and will be doing watch work, they are worth having- especially as they can be had for a few hundred bucks nowadays.

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    this photo, inspecting the dovetail for the rear sight on a Chicom pistol, using the optical finder and a rotary table. not only the angles, but the dimensions to an easy .0002"-quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwmachine View Post
    I do it with a toolmaker's microscope as suggested before. If you don't have one, and will be doing watch work, they are worth having- especially as they can be had for a few hundred bucks nowadays.
    Fifty-plus years ago, our whole assembly line used Bausch & Lomb 20 X binocular industrial microscopes.

    Fast-forward to present-day, and all manner of goods are out there - optical, electronic. and combination within a few bucks either way of $200. Brand-new as well as used.

    ISTR there has been one or more PM threads on the merits or not of various members of that race & tribe already?

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    The "Clinometer" app on my cell phone along with a mounted hand glass the phone camera "might" do a good enough job if it's only the geometry you need.

    The setting up for accurate eval. is the big thing. Lots of imaging and measuring apps around these days.

    I do have one of those $30 microscopes that plugs into the PC.
    But the Binoc microscope and the TM scope see the most utility when I need to evaluate something.
    A micrometer work stage goes a long way!

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    Quote Originally Posted by garyrice View Post
    > Can you get access to a Shadowgraph?

    I wish! The last time I saw one of those was in 1974 (prior to the Digital age version).

    It was at the University. The Department that owned it was disbanded in 1997 and all of the tools and equipment were sold or scrapped.

    Gary
    And it's not in your garage, why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by donie View Post
    ..on a Chicom pistol..
    Why do you use a racist phrase like that?

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    Chicom Pistol ..."Why do you use a racist phrase like that?"

    Only a Seattle snow flake would ask! But lets sort it out... First, it is a pistol, second, its made by Chinese communist state factory.\, third, not racist, I hate everyone equally.
    So, Kill a Commie for Mommy!

    And just like a magpie, you have not added anything to this subject....nothing, for sure you are not a professional.
    Ha, Ha, I read some of your post! Bring it on brain boy!

    Anyway magpie, I do get that you are the type that simply cant compete on the machining playfield, so, you must dish out of your ass, your political perfection,,,yes? Well lets face it, you are so very weak, and nearly helpless in the shop, try making something!

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmagpie View Post
    Why do you use a racist phrase like that?
    Oh snow flake.......


    You confuse country of origin with race. True progressives will advise you there are no differing races on man.

    You must be looking for something else... to whine about.

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    Here was my poor-man's (and no bench-space) solution to an optical comparator, can be used on any mill/drill, or even a drillpress with an x-y stage. Titan Tool Supply probably still has some.

    Po-Man's Comparator Using Titan Centering Projector and Mill DRO

    Also, I've used a scavenged x-y micrometer with rotary stage in a standard stero-microscope (you need a reticle). Can also use "filar" measurement eyepieces that fit in microscope/stereo-microscope eyepieces, some of these have angular measurement as well as linear (search Ebay for "filar eyepiece" and such).

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    Measure those angles to WHAT accuracy?????????

    +/- 1 degree should be easily possible with a 10X or 15X magnifier with a suitable graticule.

    Transparent Base Magnifier | Edmund Optics

    Search | Edmund Optics

    Higher accuracy may require more expensive methods. So, WHAT ACCURACY?



    Quote Originally Posted by garyrice View Post
    I just acquired a bunch of watchmaker tools and parts. They are incredibly small. Some of the tools are missing pieces that I will have to fabricate.

    My traditional method of measurement (sine block) isn't practical because the tools are so tiny that:
    1) the pieces fall on the floor and get lost
    2) the pieces are so small that I need a magnifier to see them and holding them with tweezers interferes with seeing the air gap

    Suggestions?


    Gary

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