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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    "I'm a PastaFarian".....works for me...
    Most of the "pastafarians" I've known are morbidly obese and at risk of adult-onset diabetes if not already fighting it. Hope it does "work for you" better than that,

    Humans do not metabolize starch (pasta) other than as converted to SUGARS. See "ptyalin" whilst I pop out for a pizza.

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    I got rid of my fluorescent lights and went to 8 corncob LED's 5000 lumens each. Each one equals a 300 watt incandescent.
    Great in cold temps no warm up and bright.

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    X 8 6k led 4” t8 replacement tubes. Cheap/good light.
    Also 150w equivalent led that are 4000k jist to round out the colour a bit.

    Always install more than you need. Shadows suck and eye strain leads to headaches you don’t need. Light is cheap

    My tubes are great, but I have found the latest batch of led screw in bulbs have a flicker and the CNC running makes them worse.
    But their are not the primary light in the shop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aliva View Post
    I got rid of my fluorescent lights and went to 8 corncob LED's 5000 lumens each. Each one equals a 300 watt incandescent.

    See, that is a completely meaningless statement.
    First, noone cares about wattage equivalence.
    I am NOT installing lights in the shop so I can pay for electricity. Rather, I put them freakin' things up so I can see.
    So, I don't care how many watts ( if any ) I save as long as I have no blind or dark spot.

    Which brings me to the next point. That 5000 lumens is less than a F48T32 2 bulb fluorescent fixture.
    Said fixture is also 50 x the size of that single bulb, spreading it's 5000L light much more evenly and to a larger area.
    I sincerely doubt that your single bulb - regardless of the fixture and lense it's in - has the same coverage.

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    I love led tube replacements but it did take some (a lot) of playing around and experimenting with color temps, CRI and cover types and bulb mix.
    One can get lost here in options.
    Better lighting and much lower overall cost in the end.
    Not having to deal with the life and replacement of 90 fixture ballasts is a true joy.
    Bob

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    Show you? Well, come on over and I will. Actually, if you look at the photo I posted above, there they are. The sun glasses may have been a joke, but those 12, 4' LED tubes went into the same sockets as the 12 fluorescents they replaced. As I said, I removed the ballasts and wired them directly to the 115VAC power circuit. They are a lot brighter than the original fluorescents ever were.

    I did not buy just any LED tubes from the local stores. I too was worried about the amount of light that they would provide. They were rated at about the same Lumen output as the better fluorescent tubes but when I installed them I found that they were significantly better than the ones I had. After installing one box of them in the shop, I was totally convinced and purchased three more boxes for the rest of the shop and the other four foot fixtures around my house. I now have 39 of them in service and they replaced about 50 or more fluorescents. Every room where I have them now has better light with fewer bulbs. My wife is delighted and I have not replaced a bulb since installing them.

    The brand name is Sunco. Google it. I have not seen them anywhere locally and they do cost more than the brands being sold at Lowes, Home Depot, Ace Hardware stores, and Walmart. But, like US made lathes and milling machines vs. Chinese imports, you do get what you pay for.



    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Apparently not enough.
    I still don't know where these fine fellas get T8 Ballast Bypass LED bulbs that are higher Lumen output than the same socket equivalent fluorescent bulb.

    ...<snip>....

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Most of the "pastafarians" I've known are morbidly obese and at risk of adult-onset diabetes if not already fighting it. Hope it does "work for you" better than that,

    Humans do not metabolize starch (pasta) other than as converted to SUGARS. See "ptyalin" whilst I pop out for a pizza.
    Uhm...yeah.

    it has nothing to doo about pasta, more about the strainer you use to make pasta....
    Flying Spaghetti Monster - Wikipedia

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Uhm...yeah.

    it has nothing to doo about pasta, more about the strainer you use to make pasta....
    Flying Spaghetti Monster - Wikipedia
    It's a thread on lighting. A light-hearted "religion" prolly fits?

    As to where one gets the starches as are converted to sugars and burned as our version of rocket fuel?

    Green plant STALKS are mostly cellulose, sorta glued to stand up stiff.. by polysaccharides (sugars and their carbohydrate precursors..).

    The combo provides bulk for better digestion, and more evenly timed take-up of the sugars. Sub that for refined flours of breads, cakes, pastas, sugared cereals, over-sweetened beverages, and also shed the SALT?

    Weight puts ITSELF back under control.

    Diabetic conditions can moderate, even return to normal or near-as-dammit.

    Asians do not really "run on rice". They run on vegetables, with a boost from "pulses" such as soya. Add eggs, chickn', pork, beef, ANY nontoxic seafood.. or "whatever". Rice is only akin to topping-up the "day tank" on a Diesel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EPAIII View Post
    They are a lot brighter than the original fluorescents ever were.

    They were rated at about the same Lumen output as the better fluorescent tubes but when I installed them I found that they were significantly better than the ones I had.

    The brand name is Sunco. Google it.

    Well, again. That MAY be you perception, or even better, it MAY be that your old fluorescents were of different color temp and lower L.
    I did look at Sunco, and as far as replacement linear tubes, they have the max 18W bypass, 120-277V bulbs, sporting a measly 2200L output.

    Curiously, their "industrial" lineup shows an impressive set of solutions.
    They have the 2 x 4 panel with 5500L output, and they have the even more impressive linear high-bays with as much as 30,000L output.
    Nevertheless, neither of those are direct replacement to a standard fluorescent tube, rather a linear LED panels that are custom.

    Again, have nothing against LED, but don't confuse people with L/W ratings.
    You may feel better with your lights, by all means please, do so.

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    Well, the Suncos that I bought are rated at 2000 L per tube. They replaced a mixture of T12s that probably ranged from 1400 L to 2000 L when new but were at various ages. And the fluorescents did age.

    I was very worried about how much light I would have, especially in the shop. I did not take any light meter readings before and after, but I have trained my eyes to judge these things from the old film camera days where I could usually judge an exposure fairly well under normal lighting conditions (bright sun to normal indoor lighting). I can say that the level of the light in my shop was at least twice as much after the conversion. That would be one full F-stop on a camera lens or more. It was far in excess of what I expected from reading the published ratings of the various bulbs. Perhaps part of that was due to the difference in color temperature. The old bulbs were 4000K or lower while the Suncos were 5000K.

    I did install them in nine different rooms and I did not need to use more of the LED bulbs. In fact, in several of those rooms I used only three bulbs in the four bulb fixtures and the level of light was greater. In one room, I used only two bulbs in place of four fluorescent ones and the light was greater.

    I do not think anyone can go wrong by converting from fluorescent to LED if they use good brand LED bulbs. And unless you are really under-lit (actually I was) with the fluorescent bulbs, the LEDs will be more than enough if used one for one.



    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Well, again. That MAY be you perception, or even better, it MAY be that your old fluorescents were of different color temp and lower L.
    I did look at Sunco, and as far as replacement linear tubes, they have the max 18W bypass, 120-277V bulbs, sporting a measly 2200L output.

    Curiously, their "industrial" lineup shows an impressive set of solutions.
    They have the 2 x 4 panel with 5500L output, and they have the even more impressive linear high-bays with as much as 30,000L output.
    Nevertheless, neither of those are direct replacement to a standard fluorescent tube, rather a linear LED panels that are custom.

    Again, have nothing against LED, but don't confuse people with L/W ratings.
    You may feel better with your lights, by all means please, do so.

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    I just upgraded- took down a bunch of the t8’s and went in with double strip 8' LED's plus a single 4' LED over the lathe.

    Great upgrade- seems to saturate the shop better and less feeling of shadows when working with lights behind me.
    I still am holding off vision problems but I do like the shop bright- these provide that.
    It took a couple of minutes to get used to though- threw the switch and it was like crap- that is BRIGHT.
    Last edited by Trboatworks; 02-27-2021 at 04:48 PM.

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    The rated output of a fluorescent tube is determined in lab conditions by testing it with a ballast having a ballast factor (BF) of 1.0. ie, the ballast is a perfect match for the tube being tested.

    The industry average BF for fixtures on the market today is 0.87 so you lose 13% of your rated output there.

    Then you have the effects of the reflector. The best white painted reflectors, using paint designed for max reflectivity, absorb 10% of your output which is then converted to heat. Average reflectivity gloss white paint absorbs around 15% of the lumens.

    At that point, your useful lumens are .87 X .90=.78, or 78% of the tube's rated lumens, or possibly less depending on the paint used on the reflector. You also lose a few more percentage points due to the fact that the reflector reflects part of the light back onto the tube itself. This is dependent on the shape and position of the reflector as well as the diameter of the tube. You can take a T12 fixture and re-lamp it with T8 tubes having the same lumen rating as well as ballasts having the same BF as the original, and you will have a perceptible increase in light output purely from the fact that a T8 at 1" dia blocks less of the reflected light than a T12 at 1.5" dia.

    OTOH, bypass led tubes have no BF effects, nor do they have reflector absorption effects or tube blocking effects to reduce the useful light. If a tube carries a DLC certification, that's indicative that it does produce the manufacturer's claimed output and does so within the tolerance range of the stated color temperature rating. IOW, a 2200 lumen tube will deliver 2200 lumens of useful light.

    In comparison, an F40T12 fluorescent tube will be rated 2600 to 2700 lumens. Used in non-premium fixtures that don't use high reflectivity paint, the useful light will be 2700x.87x.85=2000 lumens. This doesn't account for the blocking effect of the tube, so the actual number will be less than 2000. If the fixture uses paint with a semi-gloss or eggshell level of gloss as a lot of them do, the reflectivity can be as low as 80% which would drop the output to 1880 lumens minus the blocking effect of the tube.

    Seymour mentions using F48T8 tubes and getting more light than you get from a 18W bypass tube. This isn't an apples to apples comparison since a F48T8 is a 43/44W 4000 lumen High Output (HO) tube. It can give up 25% of its rated output due to BF and reflection losses, and still produce 3000 lumens of useful light. If you want to compare high output tubes, this DLC certified led tube Ultra High Lumen 4ft LED Tube T8/T12 - Type B | ELEDLIGHTS produces 3300 lumens while using 20 watts. More useful lumens than the F48T8 for less than half the input power. I do agree with Seymour that the "equivalent watts" thing is near useless for comparison purposes. In every case you have to look at lumens, and in the case of fluorescents, lumens delivered as useful light rather than lab generated total output.

    None of the above accounts for dirty tubes (applicable to both fluorescent and led), dirty reflectors (applicable only to fluorescent), or the fact that light output diminishes faster with age in a fluorescent than in an led.

    Based on various shops I've been in, a lot of places are still using 8ft 2 tube fixtures with 75 watt F96T12 tubes. If the tubes are a couple years old, the actual output from those fixtures would be about 5600 lumens (total for both tubes) if the tubes and reflectors are clean. 8ft 40 watt 4800 lumen bypass leds are widely available for about $15 apiece. Rather than continuing to throw $5 apiece fluorescents at them while waiting for their $20-$30 ballasts to die, they could spend $30 on a pair of led tubes, throw the ballast away, and have 70 percent more light for about half the power input. Seems like good bang for the buck to me, but I guess some people just don't grasp the fact that working in a semi-dungeon hurts production as well as employee morale.

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    Has anyone tried the flat panel LED lights? If doing a new install would you get fluorescent fixtures just to put LED tubes into them? Only 10ft ceilings so high-bay type fixtures are out. What would you use?

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    2x4 flat panel LEDs in the office troffer spots that held four 4 foot bulbs. 3 years of close to 24/7 in use now with no problems
    Very nice, much brighter and better light coverage than the tube fixtures . I got the dimmable kind that you just wire a small pot into. Highly recommended and I am picky about lighting, temp, CRI, glare and shadows.
    They have no frame or mount so if a new install you need a frame kit.
    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GEYU1VS...roduct_details

    Lumen ratings can be deceiving, part of the light from a tube goes up into the reflector and bounces back to illuminate the bulb itself and never gets to the workspace plus light losses in reflection.
    LED tubes are directional which is why I now only buy the "milky" coverings for diffusion after having tried all.

    Front shop ten foot tall is 8 footers and a mix of color temps just as I did with fluorescent after much playing with them also over so many years to get bright but not glarey.
    In the fluorescent world cool white tubes are yellow, daylight bulbs are blue. Who'd of thought?
    If you heat steel with a torch yellow is way bellow blue so it makes more sense thinking that way.
    At this height fill factor comes into play. Single pin 8 footers allow you to "angle" the bulbs individually which can not be done with dual pin fixtures.

    Be aware that high color temp that looks very bright at first can be a real headache pain under long working hours.
    Print and paint shops get insane crazy over lighting, spectrum fill and CRI. This not needed in a machine shop.
    Easy on the eyes but bright. You do not want "harsh", "glare" or "shadows".
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
    . . .Only 10ft ceilings so high-bay type fixtures are out. . .
    I have 10' ceilings and use highbay lights. You sometimes have to adjust spacing a bit closer to avoid uneven lighting. Some of the fixtures available have the lamps switched 50/50 so if you want you can turn on half or all. It would be easy to DIY switching if using LED. The T5HO fixtures I used have the switching function built into the ballast.
    Now, if you're talking (the big) mercury or sodium 'bulbs', then yeah, highbay is a bad idea at 10'!
    Last edited by Gordon Heaton; 02-27-2021 at 11:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Heaton View Post
    I have 10' ceilings and use highbay lights. You sometimes have to adjust spacing a bit closer to avoid uneven lighting. Some of the fixtures available have the lamps switched 50/50 so if you want you can turn on half or all. It would be easy to DIY switching if using LED. The T5HO fixtures I used have the switching function built into the ballast.
    Now, if you're talking mercury or sodium 'bulbs', then yeah, highbay is a bad idea at 10'!
    Not necessarily... Fluorescents and "CFL" are Mercury-vapour, Low and high pressure Sodium come in more than one form as well.

    Hong Kong flats, "in between" 9 foot ceilings are common. A common setup is a trough around the perimeter, bouncing the light off the ceiling and or what GE called "wall washers" grazing diffusing light off the walls.

    A ceiling-island in the center or offset over a dining table provides downlight and side-graze as well,

    "Efficient?" Well.. yes.. at making the occupants FEEL better in small spaces.

    Hong Kong folks LOVE a lot of elegant lighting all fired-up. Especially if no one is even in any given room!

    So much so that when here for their hols, I have to explain the air-con is struggling because they have 800 - 1200 watts of light--> heat at full-gallop in the kitchen alone .. and another 2,000 W heating the rest of the house!

    Motion-activated switches have saved my bank account if not also my social-interactions ass!


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    Thank you for that explanation. I had not dug into the subject that deeply, but what you say makes a lot of sense in the light of my personal observation. I never imagined that there was that much loss in a fluorescent bulb and it's fixture. It does explain the striking improvement that I observed when I converted to LEDs.

    It also seems to explain why I found so much improvement when converting the four foot fluorescents as opposed to only relatively small improvements when I converted the various screw-in fixtures from compact fluorescents or incandescents to LEDs.



    Quote Originally Posted by metlmunchr View Post
    The rated output of a fluorescent tube is determined in lab conditions by testing it with a ballast having a ballast factor (BF) of 1.0. ie, the ballast is a perfect match for the tube being tested.

    The industry average BF for fixtures on the market today is 0.87 so you lose 13% of your rated output there.

    Then you have the effects of the reflector. The best white painted reflectors, using paint designed for max reflectivity, absorb 10% of your output which is then converted to heat. Average reflectivity gloss white paint absorbs around 15% of the lumens.

    At that point, your useful lumens are .87 X .90=.78, or 78% of the tube's rated lumens, or possibly less depending on the paint used on the reflector. You also lose a few more percentage points due to the fact that the reflector reflects part of the light back onto the tube itself. This is dependent on the shape and position of the reflector as well as the diameter of the tube. You can take a T12 fixture and re-lamp it with T8 tubes having the same lumen rating as well as ballasts having the same BF as the original, and you will have a perceptible increase in light output purely from the fact that a T8 at 1" dia blocks less of the reflected light than a T12 at 1.5" dia.

    OTOH, bypass led tubes have no BF effects, nor do they have reflector absorption effects or tube blocking effects to reduce the useful light. If a tube carries a DLC certification, that's indicative that it does produce the manufacturer's claimed output and does so within the tolerance range of the stated color temperature rating. IOW, a 2200 lumen tube will deliver 2200 lumens of useful light.

    In comparison, an F40T12 fluorescent tube will be rated 2600 to 2700 lumens. Used in non-premium fixtures that don't use high reflectivity paint, the useful light will be 2700x.87x.85=2000 lumens. This doesn't account for the blocking effect of the tube, so the actual number will be less than 2000. If the fixture uses paint with a semi-gloss or eggshell level of gloss as a lot of them do, the reflectivity can be as low as 80% which would drop the output to 1880 lumens minus the blocking effect of the tube.

    Seymour mentions using F48T8 tubes and getting more light than you get from a 18W bypass tube. This isn't an apples to apples comparison since a F48T8 is a 43/44W 4000 lumen High Output (HO) tube. It can give up 25% of its rated output due to BF and reflection losses, and still produce 3000 lumens of useful light. If you want to compare high output tubes, this DLC certified led tube Ultra High Lumen 4ft LED Tube T8/T12 - Type B | ELEDLIGHTS produces 3300 lumens while using 20 watts. More useful lumens than the F48T8 for less than half the input power. I do agree with Seymour that the "equivalent watts" thing is near useless for comparison purposes. In every case you have to look at lumens, and in the case of fluorescents, lumens delivered as useful light rather than lab generated total output.

    None of the above accounts for dirty tubes (applicable to both fluorescent and led), dirty reflectors (applicable only to fluorescent), or the fact that light output diminishes faster with age in a fluorescent than in an led.

    Based on various shops I've been in, a lot of places are still using 8ft 2 tube fixtures with 75 watt F96T12 tubes. If the tubes are a couple years old, the actual output from those fixtures would be about 5600 lumens (total for both tubes) if the tubes and reflectors are clean. 8ft 40 watt 4800 lumen bypass leds are widely available for about $15 apiece. Rather than continuing to throw $5 apiece fluorescents at them while waiting for their $20-$30 ballasts to die, they could spend $30 on a pair of led tubes, throw the ballast away, and have 70 percent more light for about half the power input. Seems like good bang for the buck to me, but I guess some people just don't grasp the fact that working in a semi-dungeon hurts production as well as employee morale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EPAIII View Post
    Thank you for that explanation. I had not dug into the subject that deeply, but what you say makes a lot of sense in the light of my personal observation. I never imagined that there was that much loss in a fluorescent bulb and it's fixture.
    He left out the "best part". GE was teaching us - major commercial buildings energy managers - Walmart's FM Manager and I were in the same class.

    ...to "group relamp" at two year intervals. WTF? The greedy self-serving GE BASTARDS! We KNEW our tubes went four to ten years?

    Yah well... The "vapour" get's dirty from metal shed by count of "starts" as well as hours lighted. Contamination makes it CONDUCT more easily. And diminishes the effectiveness of the phosfors that convert UV to visible light.

    So the current draw is eventually up by 50%, over-stressing the ballast so THEY fail, and must be replaced, meanwhile for the higher electricity consumption, the light output has dropped! A LOT!

    Guess what? Humans were wild animals. Predatory hunter-gatherer omnivores. For a VERY long time.

    We adapt to whatever lighting we can get. Too damned well to notice we were kidding ourselves that our dirty-fixture, WRONG fixture, wrong lense .. or no helpful lense & reflector combination at all, dirty tube, over current-draw, blackening phospor ... FORMERLY beneficial fluorescents ... were still doing us more good than harm!

    Because they were not!

    And ARE not! JF read this thread!

    QED

    Group relamping @ two years paid for itself at the electricity rates and wages then prevalent. More efficient use of labour to do a whole group, not a few as they got dark ends and went to flickering or failure to fire. Fewer ballast failures that wanted a licensed electrician to replace, not just a guy with a ladder.

    And that was at powerco and labour rates of .... wait for it... full fifty years ago!

    I have tried CFL's ... but after that GE course?
    Fluorescents came OUT of my OWN place! CFL's soon followed.

    The claimed advantage just wasn't "there" over even ignorant incendescents that could be arranged for much nicer lighting, were happier with dimmers and motion-detection.

    First ten years of LED were also lousy.
    I don't mean "most recent" ten years, either.

    If the diodes didn't fail, the assembly overheated from a crappy PSU, melted an adhesive, and they FELL out, finally killing the cooked PSU as well.

    They only got to be "value for money" when the highest count of folks most in power-shortage NEED AKA "largest single market" was no longer affluent Europe or North America. The needy lived in.."wait for it"..CHINA!

    And then the scramble was finally on for GOOD LEDS ...call it about five years now? And at less than rapist prices, anyway.

    NOW they make good sense! IF you get the good stuff!

    More proven names with a "track record" in the field. Fewer new-entrant opportunistic liars.

    THIS is why we need to DO this excercise more than just the one time.

    The economics of both supply and urgency of need change, not just the technology, effectiveness, reliability, or the names as can be trusted.

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    Please someone tell,what are these corn cob lights you speak of?
    thanks,
    Gw

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg White View Post
    Please someone tell,what are these corn cob lights you speak of?
    thanks,
    Gw
    Go ogled:

    "corn cob led lights"

    About 1,640,000 results (0.47 seconds)

    Bunch of those are on You Tube. Testing as well. Some are better than others. Some are outright shite. When, ever, was it otherwise?

    If you can still see and hear but your reading skills have atrophied.

    Yah, I am being a dick. Ever wonder what causes folks to be that way?

    Guess you could Go Ogle that, too? Nah. Let some one else do it FOR you!



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