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    Glad to see this subject has generated some informative points/pointers. Certainly glad I asked the questions and having installed the LED tubes I'm more than happy with the results (Immediate bright light, no flickering tubes or clicky starters).

    May just have to whiten a wall now subject to enthusiasm

    Personally didn't do too many in depth searches ... Google is a great source but asking on a forum of engineers gets you an answer directly related to my workshop needs.

    I just needed bright light at the flick of a switch but there have been some very informative views along with the usual few tetchy grumbles and growls - whatever!

    John ... and as always - Stay safe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    Glad to see this subject has generated some informative points/pointers. Certainly glad I asked the questions and having installed the LED tubes I'm more than happy with the results (Immediate bright light, no flickering tubes or clicky starters).

    May just have to whiten a wall now subject to enthusiasm

    Personally didn't do too many in depth searches ... Google is a great source but asking on a forum of engineers gets you an answer directly related to my workshop needs.

    I just needed bright light at the flick of a switch but there have been some very informative views along with the usual few tetchy grumbles and growls - whatever!

    John ... and as always - Stay safe!
    Lighting Engineers and Architects (two of those in the family) have their own forums and blogs as well.

    Same needs. Which suppliers and technology are useful, which are less so!


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Which suppliers and technology are useful, which are less so!

    IMO very little point even discussing suppliers/pricing as the forum is "mainly" US based and mentions US stores etc which is of no use to me in the UK (and the UK guys I've conversed with on here are countable on one hand ).

    Comments about the Lumins/Wattage/Temperature for me were helpful and although I bought LED Battens with three switchable temperature settings the jury is still out on what's best for my needs. Currently I've got "cool" light over the Lathe, Mill and TC Grinder and "daylight" over the bench area but that may well change.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    See, that is a completely meaningless statement.
    First, noone cares about wattage equivalence.
    I am NOT installing lights in the shop so I can pay for electricity. Rather, I put them freakin' things up so I can see.
    So, I don't care how many watts ( if any ) I save as long as I have no blind or dark spot.

    Which brings me to the next point. That 5000 lumens is less than a F48T32 2 bulb fluorescent fixture.
    Said fixture is also 50 x the size of that single bulb, spreading it's 5000L light much more evenly and to a larger area.
    I sincerely doubt that your single bulb - regardless of the fixture and lense it's in - has the same coverage.
    initial lumens, as we all know fluorescents dim rapidly.

    Most energy saving standard fluorescents are just dimmer in proportion to their lesser wattage anyway

    I think there are some vagaries in how lumens are measured that may or may not affect how LEDS are measured

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    Changed existing 4' fixtures to ballast-free LED tubes a few years ago. Then took them with me when I sold the place; I didn't want the long tail of liability since I'm not a licensed electrician.

    Skimmed quickly and didn't see this mentioned: Check for strobe effects when you change over lighting, notably at rotating manual machines like lathes and mills. It would suck for work RPM to sync with LED duty cycle and trick you into thinking something was still/un-powered when it wasn't. Uncommon, but not 'un-possible'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip Chester View Post
    Changed existing 4' fixtures to ballast-free LED tubes a few years ago. Then took them with me when I sold the place; I didn't want the long tail of liability since I'm not a licensed electrician.

    Skimmed quickly and didn't see this mentioned: Check for strobe effects when you change over lighting, notably at rotating manual machines like lathes and mills. It would suck for work RPM to sync with LED duty cycle and trick you into thinking something was still/un-powered when it wasn't. Uncommon, but not 'un-possible'.
    that syncing is what makes it difficult for me to see my edge finder. And the flickering is what makes it difficult to see in general. The leds are much brighter, but I feel like sometimes it's harder to see detail. I won't give up the LED's, I changed my entire shop over long ago, and my wife says the electric bills are much lower just from lighting.

    Going to do an incandescent experiment with a swing light to see if it helps see the edge finder better.

    edit: yea, that wasn't much better. slightly.. maybe it's just my aging eyes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip Chester View Post
    ...
    Skimmed quickly and didn't see this mentioned: Check for strobe effects when you change over lighting, notably at rotating manual machines like lathes and mills. .
    Florescent tubes do not do this? Not sure how you used to adjust the speed on your old vinyl record turntable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    IMO very little point even discussing suppliers/pricing as the forum is "mainly" US based and mentions US stores etc which is of no use to me in the UK (and the UK guys I've conversed with on here are countable on one hand ).
    ??? Was handed the "additional duty" of overseeing the architects for C&W, Plc's renovations to our two floors leased at 90 Longacre.

    Can assure you Blighty has NO shortage of lighting expertise.

    PM is not where one goes for that, regardless of country. "Subjective" opinions of "end-lusers" with generally one shop at a time, rather.

    You wouldn't expect a vegetarian to be all that expert about beef, would you?


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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post

    The problem I have with both of those articles is that the very same people some 15+ years ago were pushing similar deceiving articles to convince people to
    switch from a 4 bulb T12 fixture to a 2 bulb T8. Then 5 year later did the same thing to the T8 fixtures to be re-done with T5 and have a better result.

    Now to light output from a fixture vs. a bulb.
    Yes, there is no question that light output degrades much more rapidly and extensively in a Fluorescent than in an LED. LED does degrade some, but much less.
    Yes, the reflector makes a huge difference! ( I've explicitly stated that in my first post ) The coating and the "shape" greatly influences not only the amount of light, but also the distribution of it.
    So, when I upgraded, I chose the reflective ( think high-polish chrome or mirror ) reflectors, that were designed specifically for my bulb carrier's spacing.
    What I mean by that is that the bulb blockage is greatly reduced by a prism dent above each bulb, so it deflects the light that would otherwise be directed back at the bulb's surface.
    Also, the side curves are not a continuous radius, rather a multi-faceted flat surfaces.
    Now what that means is that whenever I look up at the fixtures ( approx 15' height ), I see not 2 strips of light, instead - depending on viewing angle - I see 4, 5 or even more "aberrations" of
    a light source, that is spread to an area to approx 14" wide
    With the light fixtures @ 15' height and 8' x 8' checkered spacing, the result is that -other than less than 3' from the walls - no matter where I stand in the shop I see no shadows!
    There are no shadows of me standing, no shadows of machines or no shadows of any items to EXTEND! outward.

    By nature, LED light is quite unidirectional ( just take a cheapo flashlight as an example ). In case of linear LED bulbs, they are by construction limited to less-than 180 degree of output.
    So, the deflection ( or direction ) must be built-into the bulb itself itself. Hell, I can see arguments that an LED bulb installed "upwards" in a fixture with a reflector properly designed
    to match the particular installation will yield a better result than simply relying on the bulb's distribution.

    So in conclusion I will concede that there is a whole lot more than pure Lumens that make for a proper lighting design, but if your lights or their placement was garbage to begin with, replacing
    the fluorescent with an LED will not get you truly better results.
    Yes, you may see "better" in some places where you mostly work, but that does not mean your lighting actually got better overall ( perhaps got even worse )

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    I have a 25x30 shop. Changed all my fluorescents to 6 5000 lumen corn cob LED's. Much better light and turns on in the cold no warm up needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Sorry. NELA Park trained at this s**t.

    That's dumb.

    A "ballast" is a swinging choke and current-limiter. One engineered to play a complex role in pre-warming, then igniting a "Fluor" coated Mercury-vapour lamp, stabilizing the plasma-carried arc, and preserving the hardware that generates and sustains it.

    The whole deal is alien to an LED's very different needs.

    Solid-state Voltage conversions and regulation in their onboard PSU. For AC line Voltages, anyway.

    Dee Cee, as-in motor-vehicles, one can simply series them to be happy @ battery-on-charge/float Voltages. For battery NOT on charge? Different count of diode junctions in the string, depending on available Voltage.

    Those H-F ovals have nothing more complicated than a series current-limiting resistor, The "array" to match the batteries is the PCB that holds the Diodes.

    Result with a ballast still in-circuit, not even disconnected and abandoned in-place is akin to ...

    ..wearing Birkenstock sandals over top of combat boots, rather than "instead of",

    ..carrying extra mass with every step you take, as a waste of nutrition.

    Whywuddja?
    are you that dense?

    4FT LED Tubes – Green Light Depot

    vs

    Linear LED High Bay Light Fixtures | Shop Linear High Bay LED Lights Online | Warehouse-Lighting.com

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    Sorry, I looked at your references but your point escapes me.

    The reason why some LED tube style bulbs are made to operate with the ballast still in the circuit is that many people are not qualified or inclined to rewire the old fixtures or to hire an electrician. So the manufacturers made a "plug and play" LED tube. If you are not qualified or inclined to rewire the fixture, you can just remove the old fluorescent tube and insert the LED one. You still get a tremendous improvement over the fluorescents, in the light, in the lifetime, and in the operating cost.

    The hidden cost here is the cost of ultimately replacing those ballasts when they go bad. This will likely be on a one-by-one basis and the cost of multiple trips for an electrician will far exceed the cost of hiring one once to do the whole job. Or the cost in your time to go back and either rewire or replace those fixtures.

    However, if you are qualified to rewire them or able to justify hiring an electrician, then you can get even more efficiency by taking the old ballasts out and wiring the LED tubes directly to the AC power. And you will not have to replace those ballasts when they finally go bad as they surely will. I went this route, rewiring some fixtures myself and also hiring an electrician to finish the job. I now have 39 LED tubes in service and have not had a single problem in about three years. And the savings in my power bill just keep rolling in.

    BOTH of these methods will give you better light and great savings in your power usage/bill. Both are good, one is just better in the long run.

    Another point: if you have a high bay situation (the lights must be located somewhat high) then the LED tubes that I used and most of the LED tubes are well suited for this. They direct most of the light that they generate in a downward direction. This is what you want. Fluorescent tubes radiate light evenly in all radial directions and so at least 50% of it will be going upward. The reflectors in fluorescent fixtures are designed to re-direct most of this 50% downward, but they are not 100% effective in this so a large percentage of that upward directed light will be lost either by absorption by the reflector or by returning to the tube itself.




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    when I replaced mine, I removed all ballasts, and installed leds that had drivers. you wire the driver and then wire to the strips. These are magnetic strips and the leds face down, no reflector necessary as all the light is directed down. I also didn't replace tubes 1 for 1, I lowered the number of strips knowing that the light would be brighter. At work when they replaced them using the same system , things were TOO BRIGHT. we were getting blasted. So I took that hint and lowered the number of tubes/ strips.

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    As mentioned in a previous post I've contacted several contractors to give estimates on replacing current T12 Fluorescent lights in the shop with LED's. The shop is roughly 2250 sq. ft. with a 9 foot ceiling, and split into 4 defined areas. There are currently 24 fixtures in place. A couple will need need to be added to eliminate dark spots, and others will have to be moved due to changes in machine locations.

    I don't have much experience with LED's but the contractors are recommending between 3,200 and 5,000 lumens per light. I have a few LED task lights on machines and so far all are 5,000 lumens. I'm thinking anything less won't provide adequate area lighting. Estimates so far didn't include the brand, size or lumen information of the lights to be installed. I contacted one of contractors asking for specifics. They're recommending Lithonia brand, Model SHLP 48IN 40K 80CRI DNA produces 3200 lumens, Standard input= 36 watts, 88 lumens per watt. I have no Idea if Lithonia is big box store quality at big boy prices, or commercial quality that should last for many years.

    They sound to me almost like a step backwards. The fluorescents currently in place have 2 bulbs each rated for 4,000 lumens and consume 80 watts per fixture. Granted the fixtures are older, but the bulbs get changed out regularly. The oldest bulbs currently in use are only a little over a year old.
    Last edited by projectnut; 03-12-2021 at 02:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by projectnut View Post
    .... The fluorescents currently in place have 2 bulbs each rated for 4,000 lumens and consume 80 watts per fixture. Granted the fixtures are older, but the bulbs get changed out regularly. The oldest bulbs currently in use are only a little over a year old.
    What do you do with the used or aged fluorescent tubes?
    Home one can throw them in the trash, business and different rules. If or when the pain in the butt people come I needed to prove correct disposal so a dead bulb costs money and paperwork.
    Got burned here once....

    As noted above reflectors become a non-issue with LED tubes but, but, but ... pointing some upside down into the reflector can way change the light "fill" in the workspace with some loss.
    This where round pins nice as one can tweak it by rotating one tube in a dual.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by EPAIII View Post
    Sorry, I looked at your references but your point escapes me.

    The reason why some LED tube style bulbs are made to operate with the ballast still in the circuit is that many people are not qualified or inclined to rewire the old fixtures or to hire an electrician. So the manufacturers made a "plug and play" LED tube. If you are not qualified or inclined to rewire the fixture, you can just remove the old fluorescent tube and insert the LED one. You still get a tremendous improvement over the fluorescents, in the light, in the lifetime, and in the operating cost.

    The hidden cost here is the cost of ultimately replacing those ballasts when they go bad. This will likely be on a one-by-one basis and the cost of multiple trips for an electrician will far exceed the cost of hiring one once to do the whole job. Or the cost in your time to go back and either rewire or replace those fixtures.

    However, if you are qualified to rewire them or able to justify hiring an electrician, then you can get even more efficiency by taking the old ballasts out and wiring the LED tubes directly to the AC power. And you will not have to replace those ballasts when they finally go bad as they surely will. I went this route, rewiring some fixtures myself and also hiring an electrician to finish the job. I now have 39 LED tubes in service and have not had a single problem in about three years. And the savings in my power bill just keep rolling in.

    BOTH of these methods will give you better light and great savings in your power usage/bill. Both are good, one is just better in the long run.

    Another point: if you have a high bay situation (the lights must be located somewhat high) then the LED tubes that I used and most of the LED tubes are well suited for this. They direct most of the light that they generate in a downward direction. This is what you want. Fluorescent tubes radiate light evenly in all radial directions and so at least 50% of it will be going upward. The reflectors in fluorescent fixtures are designed to re-direct most of this 50% downward, but they are not 100% effective in this so a large percentage of that upward directed light will be lost either by absorption by the reflector or by returning to the tube itself.
    that is exactly the point if you do not want to futz with the fixtures, just get bulbs that are compatible with the fixture.. If you get fixtures get LED specifics. Thermite went on a stupid rant.

    dee
    ;-D

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    It looks like the ones with green ends can be tossed in the trash.
    Here's what Ohio has to say:
    Regulation of "green-tipped" fluorescent bulbs from a business/facility

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    I'm still using T5HO fluorescents. Last I looked, within the last year, the lumens per watt for led's were not that much better than these and the lumen maintenance is good on the T5's so no justification for changing. And, mine are 3500k, which I also like.

    Also, this has been discussed some, but the big thrust for LED's has been getting the most lumens per watt with minimal concern for light quality. I like 90+ color rendering index (CRI) lamps. Most people don't care but I do. The T5HO's are 90+ cri. I have not found any LED low bays with 90+ CRI. I did buy what appeared to be a pretty decent led low bay and stuck it up in my shop in a hole where I needed a little more light. Sure enough, crappy light and lots of it.

    Regarding the green end fluorescent lamps. Philips Lighting developed these low mercury dose lamps originally. I worked for them in the 90's and this was being tested at the time. They used little bitty grain of rice sized sealed glass capsules with mercury in them. These capsules were clamped into the end of the lamp in such a way that the mercury stayed in this sealed capsule until after the bulb was sealed up. It was in there in such a way that there was a metal loop with a little heater wire contacting the capsule. After the lamp was sealed the end of the lamp was run by an induction heater antenna and it induced current into the metal loop and heater wire and cut the capsule to allow the mercury vapor into the interior of the lamp. This was initially done to minimize mercury exposure in manufacturing. But it allowed them to precisely control how much mercury went in and to experiment with just how little mercury could be used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    What do you do with the used or aged fluorescent tubes?
    Home one can throw them in the trash, business and different rules. If or when the pain in the butt people come I needed to prove correct disposal so a dead bulb costs money and paperwork.
    Got burned here once....

    As noted above reflectors become a non-issue with LED tubes but, but, but ... pointing some upside down into the reflector can way change the light "fill" in the workspace with some loss.
    This where round pins nice as one can tweak it by rotating one tube in a dual.
    Bob
    In our area none can be thrown in the trash. However they can be recycled at Home Depot. I took 3 boxes in (30 bulbs) last fall. Technically I think there's supposed to be a limit of 6 bulbs. I didn't know that at the time, and when I got there I asked if I could leave them all or had to come back with them 6 at a time. The manager looked at the boxes, saw that they were purchased at his store and allowed me to leave them all at a single visit.


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