How much material can be removed by honing? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    It needs to be honed to fit a specific rotor, I want to get matched sets.

    So I'll give the honing shop the ring pressed into its housing, and the rotor as well
    And have them give me a wall clearence of .0005-.00075....leaving .001-.0015" total.

    So ..010-.015 is too much? I can leave .005-.010".....

    The rotors we hold .0005" on the O.D.


    I don't mind paying a few bucks to have each one honed, I can't see it being more than $20 per?

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    Shop I worked at used to remove up to 2" of material on some jobs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gappmast View Post
    Once again what ever problem you are trying to correct leave twice that in stock.


    What tolerance do you need to hold?
    Well it's not a problem...yet.

    I need to heat treat the part after machining. My heat treater feels the part will twist some. How much he wasn't sure. No way to tell without making one.
    But I want to contract these out to a CNC shop, no time to do these in house. So I'm having the shop make them machine undersized and then I will have them honed to final size. I'd rather leave slightly more material on to clean up as opposed to not leaving an extra few thou then scrapping all the parts.

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    So one person feels .015" is a lot and soneone else removed 2" lol.

    Again I'm in the dark here because I have no experience with honing.

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    Who the capital F hones 2" of material ?
    WTF?

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    .005 should be plenty on those parts. No sense in doing more work than is absolutely necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    Automotive boring machines as a rule center on the bore and thus have no ability to change location.
    They center on the existing bore with 3 points, then you retract them and with two dial indicators you tap the base around until you get the movement you need to line up with the crank CL. Tighten the base there and then bore. This is done all the time while "blueprinting" a motor.

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    I think .003 would be enough stock but on the first run leave .005 just to be sure. If they are over 50 Rockwell you will need to use a CBN stone. A NM55 stone to rough and depending on you finish requirements maybe a NM95 stone for finish.

    The slots could cause an out of round condition because there is less material to hone by the slots causing washout. If that happens put two parts together and stagger the slots. Worst case scenario you will have to use a Sunnen key-way mandrel. The parts I see in your picture are very honable.

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    What material do you plan to use and what HT spec are you planning on - case hardening or through hardening?

    If I had no idea what the OEM used, I might try 4140 HT and nitride it for surface hardness, to minimize HT distortion. If I was going to case harden it or through harden it, I think I'd bore it with CBN after HT to .001-.0015 over finished dia before honing to get it round and minimize time needed in honing. After some experience you might be able to bore it even closer before honing.

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  13. #30
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    You mentioned that you will job out the turning and the honing. You also mentioned that you don't know much about honing. Why don't you take a print and maybe sample parts to the shop that will do the honing and ask what they want? The more material you leave the more expensive it will be to get it removed. Also it will give the honing shop a chance to see how they are going to hold the part for honing. Is it a large housing that can't be hand held in a horizontal Sunnen hone? do you need to find a shop with vertical honing capability?
    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronReb View Post
    Who the capital F hones 2" of material ?
    WTF?
    Who ?

    Hole Specialists in Tomball, Texas can & does hone that much.

    When you don't have the correct size drill head, then you get the job done how you can. I have seen this on more than 1 occasion.
    20 feet long pieces of pipe, cost is not an issue dealing with these big oil companies, we all pay for it anyways.

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    Re the amount of material removed by honing, circa 1959 I honed out a cylinder on a Jaguar engine. No boring, just honing with an automotive hone that Hans Fisher, who was then one of the gurus in the Sunnen honing lab loaned me. When I finally got done, I complained about how long it took. Hans asked what cutting oil I used and I replied that it was some regular motor oil I had around. He found that quite amusing and then explained that Sunnen honing oil is designed for the film to break down under a relatively small pressure. I was using oil that the manufacturer went to great lengths to have high film strength, protecting the bore from being abraded by the stones.

    Hans has long retired, but I have one other contact in Sunnen, which is just around the corner from my shop. I can ask or you can just call them and get advice from the people who wrote the book instead of a lot of guesses. Many years ago, Hans showed me a machine with diamond mandrels that they were using on air control valves. It could finish your cylinder in one pass.

    Bill
    Last edited by 9100; 03-09-2015 at 10:14 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Okay so following the advice here I spoke to my Heat Treater as well as the Honing shop who will most likely get this job.

    Heat Treater feels that, his best guess, is the part will move 0.001-0.002" per inch on the part. Again he said it was just a guess. So lets figure 1.5" on the smaller ones and 2.250" on the bigger ones. If I leave the .010-.015" on the I.D. and O.D. these parts should clean up no problem.

    Now I spoke to the honing shop on removing that much material...He felt that it was a lot to remove but he said it was deff. possible, it would just be a little more costly...he quoted me around $15-20 per part on honing that much material, and holding 0.001" for my spec.
    That price will work for me, so it looks like I got a solid plan on what I want to do!

    Now if I find out that this batch moves less and I can get away with leaving less on the part to remove by honing, I will do so on the next batch, bringing the cost down for me in the future.

    Thanks again for the help and pointing me in the right direction guys. I'm anxious to get this thing going!

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    Have you thought about jig grinding these, you will get a nice round hole that is correct size, and if done properly you can get a nice crosshatch finish as well. A hone will just follow an egg shaped hole, if it twists in heat treat a hone alone will not make it round.

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    I thought honing was primarily intended for imparting a surface finish that will retain lubrication, not for material removal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rkwadd View Post
    I thought honing was primarily intended for imparting a surface finish that will retain lubrication, not for material removal.
    You are thinking of a ball hone for automotive or small engine use when changing rings on a still clean cylinder wall. Sunnen hones and other less capable units can remove materiel just usually not very quickly. As others have mentioned it is not a preferred way to remove much stock.

  20. #37
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    Hi, Bill (9100),

    Not replying to this posting, but trying to find a copy of the GBI Superfinsher manuals. Here's a msg I tried to send you, but failed because your in-box if full :-)

    ==========================

    Hi,

    Found an old(!) thread of yours on the Superfinisher. Just got one today (from a friend, Frank Ford, who also participated in that old thread, and gave up trying to use them). Got the lathe version, another friend got the milling (flat surfacing) tool.

    Did you ever get a chance to scan the manuals? Would certainly like to get a copy. If not and you still have them, could I borrow them for scanning? I'm in Palo Alto, CA, but presume the loan could be handled by mail if we're not neighbors. (BTW, if you do scan them, do it at 300dpi and 8-bit grey scale. I can run Adobe Acrobat OCR and "ClearScan" on them to produce compact, searchable PDF files. If you have another manual that you would like to have scanned and OCR'd, I be happy to do that in return, too.)

    Mike
    Last edited by mcsquared; 03-11-2015 at 02:36 AM. Reason: add ID

  21. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcsquared View Post
    Hi, Bill (9100),

    Not replying to this posting, but trying to find a copy of the GBI Superfinsher manuals. Here's a msg I tried to send you, but failed because your in-box if full :-)

    ==========================

    Hi,

    Found an old(!) thread of yours on the Superfinisher. Just got one today (from a friend, Frank Ford, who also participated in that old thread, and gave up trying to use them). Got the lathe version, another friend got the milling (flat surfacing) tool.

    Did you ever get a chance to scan the manuals? Would certainly like to get a copy. If not and you still have them, could I borrow them for scanning? I'm in Palo Alto, CA, but presume the loan could be handled by mail if we're not neighbors. (BTW, if you do scan them, do it at 300dpi and 8-bit grey scale. I can run Adobe Acrobat OCR and "ClearScan" on them to produce compact, searchable PDF files. If you have another manual that you would like to have scanned and OCR'd, I be happy to do that in return, too.)

    Mike
    Mike,

    I brought the manuals home tonight and will scan them in due time, not tonight, because I worked late. Send me an email at [email protected] with your address and I will mail you a CD with both. The books are small, 8 1/2" X 11" pages saddle stitched and folded into 8 1/2" X 5 1/2" booklets, only 5 pieces of paper in each, so I can scan facing pages in one shot. After I see how big the files are, I may just email them to you.

    I wasn't impressed with the mill version but the cylindrical one works well.

    Happy polishing, Bill


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