Hydraulics Question

mark9976 · Mar 18, 2019

Hi Experts,

I am looking to build a forging press for home based projects. I have all of the designs done but I am having an issue with the hydraulics, specifically what type of pump and motor combination would work. I have settled on a Tie Rod cylinder 4 inch bore with a 10 inch stroke 2 inch diameter Rod. This cylinder can do 3000 PSI. My requirement is to run this cylinder on an electric motor, i prefer standard 110v power but can wire 220v if needed. For my application research shows that 13GPM pump should be enough to run the press.

Below are links to the pump and motor combo I am looking at. Can anyone tell me if this setup would work for the cylinder I have chosen. I totally understand that different selections can change the overall performance of the setup. I am really looking for a check that I am not way off in left field with this setup.

13 GPM GEAR PUMP & 25 GPM VALVE COMBO KIT - Pumps - Parts | RuggedMade.

Shop Tools and Machinery at Grizzly.com

Any thoughts or suggestions on the setup are greatly appreciated. I have also included a picture of a CAD drawling in case that would help anyone with my question.

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

Thanks
Mark

CountryBoy19 · Mar 18, 2019

Simply put, no the products you linked will not work.

You seemed excited that your cylinder could "do 3000 psi" whatever you mean by that. Then you linked to a valve that has a max pressure of 2750 with a relief valve set at 2250, and the detent kicks out at 1400.

Your hydraulic pump is going to need a stand-off adapter and shaft-coupling but before you go too far you may want to compare basic listed specs like RPM. The motor you linked is a 1725 rpm motor and the pump you linked says inpur rpm is 3600. You're not going to be happy if you pair those 2 together.

Why are you trying to piece together a system? If you don't know much about hydraulics design, there are manufacturers of complete hydraulic power units both gasoline and electric with self-contained tanks etc. You would be well-served to go that route.

BobM3 · Mar 18, 2019

That pump will only put out 2.1 GPM at 400/900 psi. I think you would want to look at a Hydraulic Power Supply (HPS) instead of building your own pump/motor/tank. Without a tank and a valve it will be tough to control the output pressure (constant pressure at various flows).

greggv · Mar 18, 2019

GPM will give you the ram speed. The force is the surface area of the ram piston x PSI

APD · Mar 18, 2019

Forget about all the items you linked to.
Start at the beginning:

How Much force do you need for your application?
Without knowing that, any recommendations aren't worth much.

Next, How fast do you need the piston to cycle?
How long of a stroke do you need?

Answering these questions will help you decide what piston to get and the pump GPM required to operate it at the pressure you need. Then choose a motor that will run that pump at its rated RPM.

Surplus center has a calculator for sizing hydraulic components like log splitters. You might want to check it out.

Also, consider that most log splitters have a cycle time of 11-14 seconds, which can seem painfully slow sometimes.
Log splitters in the 11 GPM category usually have a minimum of 5 HP gas motors. So you wont have much power available to you on 110 volts.

mark9976 · Mar 18, 2019

ok so I am looking at 20 - 30 tons. I need 6-7 inch stroke but 10 inch is what I have settled on, gives me a little extra room if needed. Travel speed I am looking at 4.5 inch per sec up and 2.5 inch per sec down. From my research these would be the fast speeds, near the end of the stroke slower would be ok.

Reason I am asking these questions is that I have seen many builds online of exactly what I am trying to do, on 110v power, but very little detail on the specs of the motor and pumps used. I have seen suggestions on taking a pump that is rated at 3600rpm and only applying 1750rpm for some reason but did not catch why someone would want to go out of the specs like that.

I will check out the calculator you mention.

APD · Mar 18, 2019

5 HP = 3728 Watts
3728 watts/ 110 volts = 33 AMPS

aint gonna happen at 110 volts

For example, those little electric log splitters that run on 110v are usually 3-5 tons

john.k · Mar 18, 2019

I have built lots of hydraulic machines .......and from experience I can say this.....find a machine that works well...and copy it...........designing and building a machine from scratch ends up costing lots of unnecessary time and money.

gbent · Mar 18, 2019

I agree with the previous comments, so I will present a different thought.

Are you going to be forging with the end of the ram, or is the ram going to be loosely coupled with a slide where the slide will take all the side loading? A 2" ram at near full extension isn't going to take much side loading. Seal life will be poor, and weeping will occur quickly.

mark9976 · Mar 18, 2019

This is the machine I would love to copy and is actually where I got some of my initial numbers from. Now that I am reading some of the stuff on this thread and some additional research I don't think this one is really producing 24 tons.

YouTube

I am convinced now that I need a 5hp motor as most of the numbers I am calculating suggest that range.

mark9976 · Mar 18, 2019

To answer your questions. Yes, I will be using about the last 1 inch of the stroke 99% of the time. if I want to have an 8 inch workable space for my material what stroke size should I be looking at so I don't have poor seal life? would 10 inches be enough or should I look at something bigger?

I know mistakes will be very costly, thus the reason I have dedicated time to more research (aka my post here). I have been looking at this project for over a year but just now getting serious about the project.

MT6 · Mar 18, 2019

mark9976 said:
This is the machine I would love to copy and is actually where I got some of my initial numbers from. Now that I am reading some of the stuff on this thread and some additional research I don't think this one is really producing 24 tons.

Y of the numbers I am calculating suggest that range.

The video is of John at Black Bear Forge. He does a very good job demonstrating forging. If you watch his press in action you can see that it is a two stage pump. Pretty fast until it contacts the work then slows down when doing the higher pressure. His press also has the piston end supported by the frame which prevents side loads on the cylinder.

I'm running a cylinder off an old injection molding press with a 10 HP 3 phase motor. I collected the parts for a number of years before building it. Not everyone has the time or patience to wait as long as I did. My cylinder only has about a 4.5" stroke but there's 9" of daylight so I can adjust tooling to do what I need.

memphisjed · Mar 18, 2019

The drawing will not withstand 25 tons repeatable. Those speeds are approaching slow hammer speeds or badass hydraulic presses designed and built by forging companies. A 25# little giant hammer or xpress forging press (similar to log splitter) would be a far cheaper and easier method. both work on 110 v. Also second ram guide issues, a air hammer runs oversized (not Kenyon design)cylinders and low pressure/high volume to handle side load, 25 tons is a considerable jump from a 50kg hammer which runs a larger cylinder than that to compensate side loads.

DDoug · Mar 18, 2019

What kind of "Home based projects" involve a 25 ton forging press ?
And
Where in Pa ?

tdmidget · Mar 18, 2019

Pulleeeze!!!! A "ram" is a male sheep. A hydraulic cylinder has a "rod", not a ram. Unless I guess you're forging "billet".

atomarc · Mar 18, 2019

tdmidget said:
Pulleeeze!!!! A "ram" is a male sheep. A hydraulic cylinder has a "rod", not a ram. Unless I guess you're forging "billet".

So...the burning question is, does a Ram have a Rod! Ewe bet he does.

Farmer Stu

idacal · Mar 18, 2019

to truly get those gpm and psi numbers not going to happen with 5 horse. Horsepower Calculator - Metaris Hydraulics A 2 speed pump will do it a 5 horse electric will barely do it. 13 GPM 2 Stage Hydraulic Pump | 2 Stage (Log Splitter) Pumps | Hydraulic Pumps | Hydraulics | www.surpluscenter.com but your only 3.2 gpm at pressure. of course its only momentary. Im in the process of building a power unit for a project Im using a 13 horse gas engine with a 16 gpm 6 low 2 speed pump hoping it doesn't lug to bad and I want pressure at an idles more horsepower Im also setting the reliefs at 3000 need 2600 for the work. a lot of the time it will be in the high pressure stage.
wood splitters are only at pressure for a few seconds every stroke. on my press I used one of these for the adapter plate 4F17 4-Bolt To 56C Electric Motor To Pump Mount | Hydra-Mount | Brands | www.surpluscenter.com saves a ton of time

DDoug · Mar 19, 2019

I think we should bring an accumulator into the mix..... :crazy:

mark9976 · Mar 19, 2019

A forging press makes pattern welded steel much easier to produce. Right now I have been making simple knives and daggers and want to branch out to making Axes and pattern welded kitchen knives.

Live in Greensburg which is just east of Pittsburgh

mark9976 · Mar 19, 2019

Last night I purchased a book on building forging presses. I am not too worried about the money aspect of this project as building the press is part of the fun. I am really looking to learn the specifics and get to a point where I an maintain and really understand the function of the devices I build.

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