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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Although the trend is spreading it is not a new phenomenon. This topsy-turvy world is caused by a socialist mindset among younger management, as detailed by Ayn Rand in the novel Atlas Shrugged, written in 1957. In the novel one company decided to pay workers according to their needs, rather than their productivity. As a result the slackers invited relatives to live with them so they could get paid more while the smaller group of productive workers labored harder for increasingly smaller wages. This is fully in line with the socialist slogan popularized by Karl Marx.

    "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"

    Not a good way to run a company OR a country.
    Well. since you brought it up...

    Kapital and such were already old-hat by the time I sat down with Miz Alicia.

    - Marx had been accurate as an ECONOMIST in observing that severe concentration of wealth and power was a PROBLEM of epic proportions. UNfortunately.. he (Engels, plenty of others..) f**ked-up the SOLUTION selection. And BADLY.

    So did Ayn Rand identify a PROBLEM. Loss of recognition of the value of individuality, personal responsibility, and self-reliance. UNfortunately, she, too f**ked-up the SOLUTION selection. And BADLY.

    The reality is .. that humans are BOTH of self-interested critters AND natural couple/family/clan/tribe - industrial enterprise.. military unit ... "team" players.

    Respect and appreciation EARNED easily as important as "gold".

    Far more so, usually. Not just amongst humans, nor even just amongst primates.

    So long as even half-assedly kept close to even the fuzziest of balances, that works well, self-corrects, and has lasted a VERY long time.

    Balance, brethren & sistren.

    Balance. it doesn't happen by accident. One has to value it. Then seek it. More than just the one time. Ever and always.

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  3. #22
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    There isn't a lot of worker employer loyalty anymore. If the boss doesn't care, why should the employee? It carries down the whole line, it's a disease. Luckily in our little corner of the building the relationship is there between our boss and us. And while he may let stuff slide he also knows when to clamp down. We are all tool makers and designers with 10 - 49 years of experience. He can give us a work order and go back into his office and know it will be done without issue or needing to step in. I've heard him ask only a few times when something will be done.

    It's cut throat in big business. Protect ya neck!

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    There isn't a lot of worker employer loyalty anymore. If the boss doesn't care, why should the employee? It carries down the whole line, it's a disease. Luckily in our little corner of the building the relationship is there between our boss and us. And while he may let stuff slide he also knows when to clamp down. We are all tool makers and designers with 10 - 49 years of experience. He can give us a work order and go back into his office and know it will be done without issue or needing to step in. I've heard him ask only a few times when something will be done.

    It's cut throat in big business. Protect ya neck!
    Surely. Small as well. Or just you and yer mate. Or parent and child.

    Cover yer OWN arse, all others do the same, NO ONE is willing to extend a hand nor trust.. to take a risk on trust being reciprocated?

    Balance has left the f**king building. Or an entire nation.

    Preserving or enhancing trust, respect, and teamwork or family is not "luck".

    It's a career. Not just for the "Manager" or a parent. Everyone.

    Otherwise? WTF d'you have left to build a future with?

    Ashes? Anger? Insanity, even?

  6. #24
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    Why do I want another job at 66? Because I really liked my job and in the last two years it was mostly about encouraging and teaching the four young engineers working under me. I was also inventing some really game changing stuff in the industry, speaking at conferences etc.

    After I got reprimanded the first time I asked one of the young engineers what he thought. He got up from his desk walked over to me and shook my hand saying “I was worried this was going to be a boring job. You make it so interesting I wake up excited to go to work. It is an honor to work with you!”

    After I got fired he called and asked what happened. After I told him he said “
    Yeah that guy is a real douche. He gives me a hard time every time I go in the shop”

    I am in fairly good shape financially, own my home no mortgage, no loans, royalties from my employment contract that should pay me $40K this year and possibly more next year. My dad passed a few months back and left me $350K in insurance money.

    But I am an inventor, and still want to do that. I’ll have to start another thread on the CNC router I am building with the local high school FIRST robotics team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by garyhlucas View Post
    You do get the part about when he doesn't finish work or does it poorly that I am the one they call to fix it? You do get that it IS a shitty business, we built waste treatment plants that never get a day off? Since he isn't qualified to fix it I get to travel out of town away from my family for weeks at a time until the problems are solved. I am salaried and don't get a dime extra for this. Does this sound fair to you? Would you be trying to fix this problem?

    ALL of the company's products and special manufacturing equipment were designed or purchased by me. So when something doesn't work properly it reflects on me not him. A few days before my firing my boss was going off about us not testing a part I designed before putting it in a job. When this employee walked away I showed my boss the dated drawings indicating I had requested the part be tested 6 weeks earlier. Here was that part welded to a tank, that clearly was not made to the drawings, and included a change to the internal cavity that would keep it from working. They had already shipped another one to a jobsite, untested. Got the picture?
    I feel your pain at times, I am salary and I have to deal with other areas of my shop where some people do not get projects done and they end up getting dumped in my area. I see the slackers at my shop, the workers that can't put their phones down when they should be doing work. One thing I have learned is not to tell the boss this guy is a piece of shit or his work sucks. For some reason bosses do not want to hear that shit even when you are completely right. I have dealt with this shit for years also. It sucks that you lost your job and it may hurt your chances of getting into another place because you getting fired. If you were still working I think it would be much easier for you to find another job. Hopefully you will find something better and less stressing.

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnrs View Post
    ..not to tell the boss this guy is a piece of shit or his work sucks. For some reason bosses do not want to hear that shit even when you are completely right.
    "Some reason" is that "the company" - for better or or worse - just cut him yet-another paycheck, and you ain't about to get any of 'em back.

    So you CANNOT be "completely right". It isn't ABOUT "right" nor "wrong". It is only about what works or does not work with what is actually in the workforce, not what might be wished-for.

    Make it a "personality" observation, you've become part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.

    No Manager needs to PAY for the "negatives". Get all we want for free, or invent our own, about the same price.

    Bring me solutions, deal with the shit you can deal with - it IS noticed, BTW - , I'll have maneuvering room to hold the asshole's "going away party" two days after he's gone and he won't be invited. Got that tee shirt, too, and more than once.


  10. #27
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    A few thoughts...

    What company is the former employer's closest competitor -- either geographically or business-wise? Contact them to see if they'd like a consultant on retainer.

    Or, start a small company competing for repairs on select customers' systems. Ones who know you and your work.

    Even if you don't personally have every tool you need for that, you can rent them by the job for complete a complete write-off... just build it into your fee structure.

    Keep in touch with the young engineers you were mentoring. If things get busy for you, it might pay to have them in your corner. It might also generate business if you just hire them all away, with the plan of starting the business then selling it to them once established, say in 3-5 years when you're ready to slow down a bit, and just invent.

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  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chip Chester View Post
    A few thoughts...

    What company is the former employer's closest competitor -- either geographically or business-wise? Contact them to see if they'd like a consultant on retainer.

    Or, start a small company competing for repairs on select customers' systems. Ones who know you and your work.

    Even if you don't personally have every tool you need for that, you can rent them by the job for complete a complete write-off... just build it into your fee structure.

    Keep in touch with the young engineers you were mentoring. If things get busy for you, it might pay to have them in your corner. It might also generate business if you just hire them all away, with the plan of starting the business then selling it to them once established, say in 3-5 years when you're ready to slow down a bit, and just invent.

    Hands down - this is my favorite response to this thread! Sounds like really solid advice!

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    The company is a 7 year old startup and doesn't have enough product out for anyone to make money on service yet. One of the interesting things is that my boss didn't take my advice, seconded by his accountant, of maintaining the corporate shield between his manufacturing company and his rep firm. Same owner, shared offices, shop space and the manufacturing company hasn't made a dime yet. A money pit he has sunk over 2 million into. So he can't even walk away, because any customer not made whole will sue the rep firm where the money is and they'll win, he broke all the corporate shield rules.

    The money pit part is because he can't choose his battles or say no to a potential customer. My original design for the company was a 10,000 gallon per day plant. First dog and pony how he has a sign on it saying 15,000 gallons per day. Sells another system for 40,000 gallons per day, quick design that. Sells a system for 80,000 gallons per day, quick design that. Sells a job for 250,000 gallons per day, quick design that. In a hurry to get big he makes lots of mistakes on pricing and because they are all new and untested every one is a loser.

    Yes I am keeping in touch with the young guys, some have asked me to let them know where I land, they'd like to join me. Interestingly I spoke with another employee today and he is having chest pains from the stress. At my last employer before this my coworker and friend there also had chest pains. Then two heart attacks before he finally learned he couldn't do it all. A big part was they took 3 years to find my replacement. I asked him why it took so long. He said I was hard to replace, which gave me a chuckle.

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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by garyhlucas View Post
    The company is a 7 year old startup and doesn't have enough product out for anyone to make money on service yet. One of the interesting things is that my boss didn't take my advice, seconded by his accountant, of maintaining the corporate shield between his manufacturing company and his rep firm. Same owner, shared offices, shop space and the manufacturing company hasn't made a dime yet. A money pit he has sunk over 2 million into. So he can't even walk away, because any customer not made whole will sue the rep firm where the money is and they'll win, he broke all the corporate shield rules.

    The money pit part is because he can't choose his battles or say no to a potential customer. My original design for the company was a 10,000 gallon per day plant. First dog and pony how he has a sign on it saying 15,000 gallons per day. Sells another system for 40,000 gallons per day, quick design that. Sells a system for 80,000 gallons per day, quick design that. Sells a job for 250,000 gallons per day, quick design that. In a hurry to get big he makes lots of mistakes on pricing and because they are all new and untested every one is a loser.

    Yes I am keeping in touch with the young guys, some have asked me to let them know where I land, they'd like to join me. Interestingly I spoke with another employee today and he is having chest pains from the stress. At my last employer before this my coworker and friend there also had chest pains. Then two heart attacks before he finally learned he couldn't do it all. A big part was they took 3 years to find my replacement. I asked him why it took so long. He said I was hard to replace, which gave me a chuckle.
    Gary? This ain't the FIRST time the PM community is hearing about how much YOU know and how fucked-up the entire rest of your little corner of the universe is.

    You enjoy that? It is all the fault of "the slacker"? Management are nought but fools? You were perfect? This helps you? Just how?

    Better to be silent, MOST days, than branded too noisy to be bothered with, even if you are RIGHT.

    Even if you are AS "right" as you think you are, there will always be others who are "close enough" and better at learning, adapting, and growing with less wasted emotion, defaming of the owners in the form of VERY PUBLIC posturing.

    Small corner of an industry, yah keep broadcasting pity-party invites and condemning others to Hell, all on a searchable internet, yet?

    You can end up more notorious than famous. "Hazard to navigation"

    Already, even? Ever cross your mind whomever fired you had no better OPTION LEFT, simply did what they figured they had to do, and went-off to repair the damage as best they can?

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  18. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    ...
    Better to be silent, MOST days, than branded too noisy to be bothered with, even if you are RIGHT.
    .
    Some just can't do this no matter the outcome.
    Had a good friend in a big company. Great guy and great worker but he would go off sometimes in the daily staff meetings against those above.
    Right or wrong not the deal or problem but I told him "You have to quit poking the bear, eventual this bites you".
    But it was in his nature, he could not stop so management removed the thorn from their side.
    I don't think management won but my friend sure did lose.
    Bob

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  20. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Some just can't do this no matter the outcome.
    Had a good friend in a big company. Great guy and great worker but he would go off sometimes in the daily staff meetings against those above.
    Right or wrong not the deal or problem but I told him "You have to quit poking the bear, eventual this bites you".
    But it was in his nature, he could not stop so management removed the thorn from their side.
    I don't think management won but my friend sure did lose.
    Bob
    Mentors.

    "When are you going to take your R&R, Lootenant?"

    "Figured I could give it a miss, Sir. More important I stick with the needs of my command."

    "Take your R&R, Lootenant. Nobody is indispensable. You get shot in the ass tomorrow morning, I have a replacement here by afternoon. That's MY job."

    Morton McDonald Jones, Jr, - CG, Saigon Support Command, USARV. No Quartermaster, he.
    Cavalry, second generation, armoured track later, naked horses, earlier.

    Losses happen always. Losing never.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Some just can't do this no matter the outcome.
    Had a good friend in a big company. Great guy and great worker but he would go off sometimes in the daily staff meetings against those above.
    Right or wrong not the deal or problem but I told him "You have to quit poking the bear, eventual this bites you".
    But it was in his nature, he could not stop so management removed the thorn from their side.
    I don't think management won but my friend sure did lose.
    Bob
    There's certainly a tact to doing this but I think not saying anything is worse overall for a company. If the bosses want to surround themselves with yes men they do so at their own peril.

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  23. #34
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    "Never complain, never explain".

    A quote from one of history's great leaders. It has served me well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IWUP View Post
    There's certainly a tact to doing this but I think not saying anything is worse overall for a company. If the bosses want to surround themselves with yes men they do so at their own peril.
    More than JUST "their own peril". Puts the entire enterprise at risk.

    But can you help FIX that before the fact? IF not, what makes it easier AFTER?

    Change what you can, tolerate what you cannot, WALK if that is too much for yah, go elsewhere and work into strengths rather than lack-of.

    No gain in throwing shit-fits, rolling in them, letting that stench ripen with age, taking it on a grand tour of the world's major cities as if it were gourmet Limburger cheese as had won a blue-ribbon prize or sumthin'.

    Never have seen a pay stub nor an itemized invoice:

    "$$$$" for your service or product, "$" extra for whining, bitching, and bad-mouthing others in public.

    Who wants to work that DAMNED hard, and "for free", yet?

    Least of all when the bizness actually DOES "deal with shit".

    Just Google "Gary H Lucas". Find sewage treatment. Patents.

    Then PM.

    And folks wonder why most of us use "handles"?


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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Gary? This ain't the FIRST time the PM community is hearing about how much YOU know and how fucked-up the entire rest of your little corner of the universe is.

    You enjoy that? It is all the fault of "the slacker"? Management are nought but fools? You were perfect? This helps you? Just how?

    Better to be silent, MOST days, than branded too noisy to be bothered with, even if you are RIGHT.

    Even if you are AS "right" as you think you are, there will always be others who are "close enough" and better at learning, adapting, and growing with less wasted emotion, defaming of the owners in the form of VERY PUBLIC posturing.

    Small corner of an industry, yah keep broadcasting pity-party invites and condemning others to Hell, all on a searchable internet, yet?

    You can end up more notorious than famous. "Hazard to navigation"

    Already, even? Ever cross your mind whomever fired you had no better OPTION LEFT, simply did what they figured they had to do, and went-off to repair the damage as best they can?
    A little harsh, maybe
    A little truth, possibly
    But sometimes you just can't fix stupid...I've seen plenty of bosses with the disease commonly known as stupidity.

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  27. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by plastikdreams View Post
    A little harsh, maybe
    A little truth, possibly
    But sometimes you just can't fix stupid...I've seen plenty of bosses with the disease commonly known as stupidity.
    "Harsh" because it is now seen as a repeated habit. Check PM on his posts.

    Sure as Hell the "Bosses" hold no fragging PATENT on stoopid, do they?

    Y'know what else we've seen "plenty of"?

    They have somehow managed to BECOME the Boss and hang onto the job, anyway.

    Find out how and why, you may learn sumthin' useful, stoopid not necessarily required as a blanket-sharer, even if your impression is correct.

    It may not be, BTW.

    Had ten good years reporting to a CFO who'd solve our problems fastest by making the most OUTRAGEOUS of irrelevant suggestions a bean-counter could invent about manufacturing processes and investment in equipment he hadn't the least klew about.

    He KNEW damned well that my shop foreman and I would cease disagreeing to come up with a seriously good JOINT plan if only to avoid even DISCUSSING his nonsense, ever again!

    Which HE didn't want to have to waste time on in any case. Manage the people. THEY manage the problem.

    Stupid like a Fox, eh?


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    Quote Originally Posted by IWUP View Post
    There's certainly a tact to doing this but I think not saying anything is worse overall for a company. If the bosses want to surround themselves with yes men they do so at their own peril.
    This is very true.
    And if you are a manager, as a professional (well, at least you're getting paid!) then if you don't point out things which you observe are wrong, you're not doing your job properly.
    But the fine line is you may not be doing your job for much longer...

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    This is very true.
    And if you are a manager, as a professional (well, at least you're getting paid!) then if you don't point out things which you observe are wrong, you're not doing your job properly.
    But the fine line is you may not be doing your job for much longer...
    A lot of higher ups say they want to hear what's wrong...untill they hear what's wrong.

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    Sounds to me the owner didnt like hearing of problems when he was millions in the hole,and no prospect of climbing out.........that is the kind of stress gives you chest pains......And I might add ,at 66 ,no one is gonna win a scuffle with a younger man.........As one boss said to me..... Greyhairs are a bad look ,customers think we re stuck in a time warp.


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