Ice Cold Shops: WHY no Heaters? - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIP6A View Post
    Profit isen’t a sin but greed is.
    Put a number on this.....come on man, what's your limit ?

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    Geography might have a little bit to do with it. Texas is known for having hot and humid weather, but cold weather always takes us by surprise (never mind that the seasons keep coming around ). AC is often seen as a necessity, but central heat is the thing you "plan" on installing in the summer, but like a leaky roof, when it leaks you can't fix it, when it doesn't you don't need to.

    That said, I think it's mostly just poor facility planing. We're all just "heavy equipment operators" anyway. The magic that happens with holding close tolerances is just magic that no one cares how it happens as long as it does.

    Our old 20,000 sq.ft. shop that was in a pair of old down-town brick buildings didn't have heat/ac in the whole place, but the machine shop, offices, and most of the mechanics areas did. The rest had lots of fans and in the winter we had several propane space heaters. The new 15,000 sq.ft. building is sealed, insulated, and fully heated and cooled. It was annoyingly expensive, but necessary.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Put a number on this.....come on man, what's your limit ?
    It’s not something you can put a number on. It’s treating your employees fairly and sharing some of the wealth they generate with them.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIP6A View Post
    It’s not something you can put a number on. It’s treating your employees fairly and sharing some of the wealth they generate with them.
    No. it's a simple number.

    Between 0 and 100 %

    Put up or shut up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    No. it's a simple numbe

    Between 0 and 100 %

    Put up or shut up.
    Like I said in my last post it’s not something you can put a number on all shop operate under different circumstances.

    Given that most shop owners have 0 common decency let’s go with 0% then.

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    Now I am in 35k sq ft. air conditioned and heated. No choice. We make tool holders. We are grinding to a tenth or less. In the wintertime when our holders come back from either our heat treater or black oxide tool holders must sit for a min 12 hours before we start grinding. Most of the times its not an issue since we have a backlog.

    Bulding is prefab concrete walls with insulation in the middle. No windows, just some skylights. Can't complain, cost of doing business. Spent a decent amount on new air conditioners last year. More tonnage. Hurt a little till I did the math and it is a sub-fraction of my annual sales. Pinching pennies needlessly just hurts your business. If you wanna grow or even maintain where you are dont be cheap. Don't be stupid either. Do the math...

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    There's surely such a thing as greed. It goes along with arrogance.

    I once worked with a guy who had come to us from a major equipment supplier - the one that is/was known as GE - and he bragged how GE made a 3,680 percent profit on some small part for the gas turbines. The part had known (to GE) failure points that could have been easily fixed but they preferred not to....it was obvious the gravy train would slow down significantly if they did. And customers couldn't buy the part elsewhere...well, they could but if they used it, GE would void the warranty on the entire gas turbine train.

    A 3,680 percent, forced-purchase profit? That's greed.

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  10. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Put a number on this.....come on man, what's your limit ?
    How about 666

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIP6A View Post
    Like I said in my last post it’s not something you can put a number on all shop operate under different circumstances.

    Given that most shop owners have 0 common decency let’s go with 0% then.
    You sound like you must be a real joy to have as a co-worker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    You sound like you must be a real joy to have as a co-worker.
    I've always gotten along very well with my fellow workers.

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    I've been in a few workspaces that have the ceilings two stories up and the heat is on all day. What a waste.

    The body parts that loose heat at the fastest rate are the ones with the tightest curves, such as the nose and fingers.
    I would get a Jon-e hand warmer and every once in a while rub my nose with my warm hand. That would impress the boss and make think that I'm thinking how to solve a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Now I am in 35k sq ft. air conditioned and heated. No choice. .....
    How close and at what temp do you hold?
    35,000 must be a decent sized bill on both sides.
    Winter easy to figure for me as it's gas. Summer is A/C and part of the electric bill but seems about the same.
    A shop close to me that makes holders lets the temp rise before turning on A/C and sort of shuts off "normal" temp at night.
    I can not imagine that the grinding machines would be very happy with this cycling which led to my earlier question about thermal soak.

    Temps vary across the building of course but what do you try to hold? Do you have winter temp and summer temp?
    The "gage" number is 68F but that seems unrealistic for those who do measuring on the floor year round.
    If you have a higher number when hot outside do you heat in winter to that same and keep it there 24/7?

    I'm with one temp all year long even when no people, and lots of air flow (fans) to try to even it out. Bigger bill but It just makes for less scrap parts.
    At 12,000 square foot this costs me about $600 per month, next to nothing in spring and fall.
    Air compressors, vent and filtration system, machines, lights and computers eat way more than that in the power budget.

    A friend owns several auto repair shops. He said the employees can wear jackets and even gloves if needed in the winter.
    Big difference with outside doors opening all the time into a small place but I used to always tell him that he was not nice to his workers.
    Maybe you just get spoiled in a grind shop.
    I have another old friend who owns a heat treat.... talk about working in hell in the summer.
    This time of year we talk cold, in the summertime we say heat and why don't more have A/C.
    Bob

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    Forgot to mention 18ft ceilings.
    in the summer unless over 95 outside the a/c units are able to maintain 75 deg. Very comfy and humidity is low.
    In the winter heat is more than strong enough to maintain 70 deg no matter how cold. When dealing with machinery you are 12-20 hours in the past. If you let your shop get cold over the weekend even when you turn on the heat Monday morning machine will be in equilibrium with ambient until Tuesday.

    One of our multitasking lathes (@ 30,000 lbs) was delivered to us in the winter. outside was 20 def F. The thicker parts of the casting was still 55 deg 2 days later. We waited 1 week before doing the final level. Our Zeiss CMM is one of the smaller CMMs and has temp comp. So a 5deg spread is nothing to it.

    We leave a/c and heat exact same over the weekend. We work most Saturdays and Mondays are tough enough I don't feel like walking into a cold or hot shop Monday morning. Its the little things in life, hahaha.

    I totally understand many shops are downright huge and or have lots of windows or no insulation. When we moved into the building I looked specifically for a shop that had min amount of windows and had good insulation.

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  19. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    .......
    I totally understand many shops are downright huge and or have lots of windows or no insulation. .
    You have 35k foot and 18 foot ceilings....... Your building is downright huge to us normal people.

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    "THE HEAT'S IN FUCKING THE TOOLS, GET THE TO WORK OR GO HOME'. Said no boss ever!!

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    I live in Idaho and we heat our shops. Best we can anyway with big shop doors opening off and on. One shop has a decent sized pellet stove that never shuts down and the other burns waste oil we pull out of trucks and equipment that we would otherwise pay a disposal fee.

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    @dkmc "I thought fire sprinkler systems were 'charged' with compressed air and the pipes were dry?"

    There are systems like that. But another very common system is "wet" (mine is such a system.) The advantage is that it's very simple - fire melts a plug that opens a hole and water gushes out. Even if the city water is off, unless both backflow valves fail, there will be some amount of water and it should set off the fire alarm. In the more normal case where there is *lots* of city water pressure, it sprays water until it's soaked everything.

    Having the pipes freeze is bad.

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  24. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    You have 35k foot and 18 foot ceilings....... Your building is downright huge to us normal people.
    Yahbut... There's an advatage to that, too.

    Volume goes up as a cube function, surface area - thus "panels" that transfer heat in or out and need insulation increase only as a square function.

    "Skyscraper" office towers, other large buildings, people-heat and lighting alone can generate so much heat as to need powered and controlled extraction, even in the coldest of winters.

    Summertime incoming heat is not as bad as smaller structures, but yah still have the internally generated/trapped heat load - and humidity - to deal with.

    Short answer is that for ANY size space, it needs to be MANAGED, not ignored.

    There is serious "bottom line" money in-play.

    You do $200 of billable work, yah get to KEEP what? Twenty bucks? Ten? Only FIVE bucks?

    Yah trim the HVAC bill $200? Yah keep ALL of that.

    Mind, overdo it, yah may get to LOSE 100% of yer most productive staff, too.

    I did say "MANAGED"?


  25. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Gwinn View Post
    I'd wonder if it was actually cheaper to turn the heat off over the weekend.
    It's a time and (heat loss) rate calculation. Any time the building temp drops, heat loss goes down proportionally. (Delta T).

    The scenario is: turn the heat down on Friday evening, the objects within the heated space give up their heat as the air cools. When the heat is turned on (or up) again, (hopefully on Sunday night) the objects within the heated space gain back the same amount of heat they gave up on Friday evening. It's the same as night time setbacks, it's just longer.

    So any time the building interior temp can be lowered, less heat is required. Taken to the extreme, no heat, no expense.

    An analogy would be fuel expense for a car. Drive at 70mph the entire trip, and fuel expense will be greater than if part of the trip were driven at 30.

    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Natural gas really is “dirt cheap” these days.

    If there is any way possible, that’s the only true economical, clean, easy way to heat a shop.

    My shop is insulated 4K sq. ft. metal building, we heat it with a 175k btu natural gas unit heater. 68 degrees during the work day, 52 at night. Flat-pay plan is about $100/month, all year round.

    Hard to beat that....
    Even if buying at market rates, fire wood is still cheaper. I do my own, so it's really cheap. Granted, not as convenient for some, but a lot of that is in how it's done.

    Pellet stoves/boilers are more expensive to operate than chunkwood burners, but still cheaper than gas here by a 1/3rd.

    I still don't get why people don't insulate the hell out of their shops. Run the temp at whatever you like, that's a personal preference, but do the math. Time and heat loss are financial killers. Use the life of the building as the time and it becomes obvious.

    Even paying off a 30 year loan at commercial rates for weatherization is cheaper than heating an inadequately insulated building.

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  27. #80
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    Building volume should be almost irrelevant when heating a large shop. Why would anyone in their right mind heat the air instead of using infra-red heating unless there were very specialised reasons to need warm air instead of warm buildings, people and tools?


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