Ice Cold Shops: WHY no Heaters? - Page 6
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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    thermite,..... Larry's heat poker is way bigger than yours...
    Yah but... He's only got the ONE on his menu!

    As with the shark with two dicks, I got two separate "zones" to heat-up!



    "Suboptimal", safety-wise, but effective, I have been heating BOTH cavities last two seasons with the one of those 3KW/5KW Profusions by blocking a 90-minute fire door open and parking it on a drywall-monkey (Ich, bad days) 'loominum step platform right in the doorway.

    Those have a diagram for remote T-stat, so as soon as I have 'em "properly" installed I can actually drop the total energy consumption.

    I'll keep the layout, metrology "not-all-that-dirty" room close to 68 F.

    Main shop space can be happy at a good deal less. Small space. Lot of good insulation, etc.

    He'd rather have my utility bills than THEIR "heat pokery", I am sure!


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    I have only a small shop for myself, but I keep it heated with a couple of oil filled electric heaters. 10 C is plenty fine for the machines and me, once April or May rolls around I can usually turn it off until october.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Electric heat is almost never the most economical method but it is a easy and clean install.

    At least the juice is 100% efficient.................................but yeah, not always the cheapest.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by e-fishin-c View Post
    My biggest heating expense is the min meter monthly charge by our local gas company ($58 x 2).....so nearly $1400 per year in a gas bill is wasted because we burn nearly 2500 gals of waste oil. I still need the gas hookups due to the last few weeks we may run out of oil or the waste oil furnace could pick up water/brake fluid in the separator. More than half of all waste oil collected comes from our hydraulic cylinder and component repairs and plenty of generous DIY’ers donate to the cause. The hyd oil is mostly clean and works great to heat our 6000 sq ft (w/23’ ceiling). We work in T-shirts year round and have no need to throttle back the heat at night or on weekends. We set the gas unit heater thermostats to 50 deg just in case. Nice to walk in Monday am to a warm shop. Recycling at its best
    Could you switch to propane ?
    Buy the tank outright , and your cost's should come way down (no idling charges)

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  6. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Could you switch to propane ?
    Buy the tank outright , and your cost's should come way down (no idling charges)
    No, we are in an Industrial Condo which doesn’t permit propane tanks outside. The piped in natural gas is relatively inexpensive (compared to propane). My best option is to have my two unit suspension heaters plumbed together instead of having separate meters, but my long term goal is to have them separate when I retire to become a landlord. We have 3 2000sq ft condo units, 2 together and 1 separate as far as utilities.

  7. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by e-fishin-c View Post
    No, we are in an Industrial Condo which doesn’t permit propane tanks outside. The piped in natural gas is relatively inexpensive (compared to propane). My best option is to have my two unit suspension heaters plumbed together instead of having separate meters, but my long term goal is to have them separate when I retire to become a landlord. We have 3 2000sq ft condo units, 2 together and 1 separate as far as utilities.
    I'll bite, what the heck is an industrial condo?

  8. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
    I'll bite, what the heck is an industrial condo?
    I know a guy here in an industrial condo. Similar to normal (housing) condos but they are just industrial spaces. Someone else takes care of the maintenance etc of everything not related to the space you own in a complex. Usually a large building Or group of buildings divided up into smaller units you can buy. But still pay a fee to "landlord". Maybe the common wall to neighbors space defines it as "condo"?

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    Our building is 20 units, each 2000 sq ft. Individually owned, commonly maintained, condo fees are priced per unit. Each unit has its own specific address and tax bill so they can be bought, sold or rented. Condo rules are voted by the Owners and a management company is paid to collect fees, admin rules and maintain the property. Overall it’s not a bad deal cuz I can spend my time in the shop instead of plowing or mowing etc.e9d14f44-152f-4d26-8a00-dd287086f856.jpg

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  12. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalmatiangirl61 View Post
    I'll bite, what the heck is an industrial condo?
    My dream,that's what it is ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by e-fishin-c View Post
    Our building is 20 units, each 2000 sq ft. Individually owned, commonly maintained, condo fees are priced per unit. Each unit has its own specific address and tax bill so they can be bought, sold or rented. Condo rules are voted by the Owners and a management company is paid to collect fees, admin rules and maintain the property. Overall it’s not a bad deal cuz I can spend my time in the shop instead of plowing or mowing etc.e9d14f44-152f-4d26-8a00-dd287086f856.jpg
    What are your fees like?

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    The fees per 20x100 unit is $220 ea. That includes everything outside....plowing, landscaping, Liability and building fire insurance (not inside contents), repairs, parking lot maintenance, outdoor LED lighting, water (well), municipal sewer, fire alarms and any outside utility work. We are responsible for doors, windows and overhead doors. Parking is restricted in front of each unit and back loading area for the occupant. Each comes with one vote per unit on the condo board of directors (so I have three votes). Most occupants have 1 or 2 units. Tall ceilings allow building second story offices or storage. We have 2500 sq ft upper level for office space, parts room, storage and tubing fabrication.

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  16. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    @dkmc "I thought fire sprinkler systems were 'charged' with compressed air and the pipes were dry?"

    There are systems like that. But another very common system is "wet" (mine is such a system.) The advantage is that it's very simple - fire melts a plug that opens a hole and water gushes out. Even if the city water is off, unless both backflow valves fail, there will be some amount of water and it should set off the fire alarm. In the more normal case where there is *lots* of city water pressure, it sprays water until it's soaked everything.

    Having the pipes freeze is bad.

    You know (and I was talking this with my boy the other day too) I have always been in amazement every time I turn on a hot water faucet in motel, and warm water comes out almost instantly even in the middle of the day or night, when you know darn well that you are >100' from the boiler.

    So I came to ass_u_me that there must be a closed loop hot water line that is constantly recirculating.
    I've never seen the plumbing schems, but this makes sense to me.


    So then - when reading the above post (and I have been aware of this issue for quite some time) I just had a thought - that what if those lines also ran in a closed loop and had a bit of heat put into them?

    A chum of mine bought 350K' on the exit of The Crash and - from coming out of maybe 15K' at home, it's a LOT more building to heat. Of course he didn't have to heat it all to 65*, but the other 300k+' needed to be 40! And not having the rest rented out yet - it was all on him. Those $5K/month bills during that notable winter of 13/14 sure were tough on them!

    Now it's all rented out and a non - issue. But Now I am thinking about the recirc issue?
    And in all honesty, it's not like you would need the whole 3" pipe recirc-ing. You just need a smaller return line, and maybe a flow meter on each line to make sure that each zone is flowing it's portion.


    .. or maybe just a country mile of heat tape?





    ------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

  17. #113
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    In my usually occupied 2000 sqft shop area, there is high output (hydronic) baseboard. Surrounds most of the 4 sides of the room except where the overhead doors and entrance doors are. Supplied with a Peerless Pinnacle modulating boiler (Nat gas). Baseboard was here, I upgraded to the newer efficient boiler. I must say, it's very impressive. Walls and ceiling are (were.....ha) 1970's R14 fiberglass. Still, even with the thermostat set at 58, you can feel the heat come at you in all directions. It does feel warmer than that number on the stat. Or I have a vivid imagination? From my experience, it's probably the next best thing other than in-floor heat, and the response time is very quick. I adjust the water temp. manually on the boiler keypad depending on outside temps from between 120 and 155. It works way better than I'd think it would if I hadn't had first hand experience with the system.

  18. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    You know (and I was talking this with my boy the other day too) I have always been in amazement every time I turn on a hot water faucet in motel, and warm water comes out almost instantly even in the middle of the day or night, when you know darn well that you are >100' from the boiler.

    So I came to ass_u_me that there must be a closed loop hot water line that is constantly recirculating.
    I've never seen the plumbing schems, but this makes sense to me.


    So then - when reading the above post (and I have been aware of this issue for quite some time) I just had a thought - that what if those lines also ran in a closed loop and had a bit of heat put into them?

    A chum of mine bought 350K' on the exit of The Crash and - from coming out of maybe 15K' at home, it's a LOT more building to heat. Of course he didn't have to heat it all to 65*, but the other 300k+' needed to be 40! And not having the rest rented out yet - it was all on him. Those $5K/month bills during that notable winter of 13/14 sure were tough on them!

    Now it's all rented out and a non - issue. But Now I am thinking about the recirc issue?
    And in all honesty, it's not like you would need the whole 3" pipe recirc-ing. You just need a smaller return line, and maybe a flow meter on each line to make sure that each zone is flowing it's portion.


    .. or maybe just a country mile of heat tape?





    ------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Two different things, here.

    1) Recirculating a SMALL volume of water from a/the/one or more of remotest end(s) back to the tank with a pump can give yah three things:

    a) "instant on" HW

    b) reduced WASTE of water since folks otherwise JF run it 'til it goes hot

    c) freeze protection, no electrically-heated tape needed.

    Tyically done with a manifold, small-diameter return tubing, tiny pump. All that stuff is 'out there" and has been for years.

    The other - which we COULD do in our Hong Kong flat, save that heat is not something we NEED a lot of.. uses an instantaneous system.

    Ours is a Korean-made gas forced-draft unit made by Rinnai - their "Infinity 10" or "Infinity 20" can heat 10 or 20 liters of water per minute for never run-out of HW bath & shower.

    But ALSO - with optional system components, drive HW wall or baseboard radiator/convectors for space heating.

    Same again with fossil-fueled boilers as have done much the same, US and European facilities since even wood or coal fired days. G'mum's "industrial sized" cast-iron woodstove having an all-copper water tank built into one side of it of around ten gallons or so.

    Solar photovoltaic has been getting most of the attention, recent years, but solar thermal can, and does do much the same. Most especially with evacuated-tube collectors as can pick up heat even in the dead of winter. My ones, early 1970's were Owens-Corning made, marketed by "Sunmaster", and good enough to run an absorption chiller (similar to, if not adapted FROM, nat gas air-con chillers) that air-conditioned the "Frenchman's Reef" hotel in Antigua. In our far more modest 5 BR 3 bath suburban Virginia home case, provide HW for baths, showers, laundry, kitchen for a family of five souls, and do it reliably through as much as three straight very dull and heavily overcast days.

    Well. Maybe four and a HALF "souls". You'd have had to know my ex?

    So hybrid heat / HW off a central steam or HW "boiler" - energy source optional, even geothermal (Iceland thrives on it..) - isn't at all NEW.

    It had just sort of fallen out of common use in favour of systems that were faster and cheaper to INSTALL. Also generally required no thought nor care, relative to at least minimal periodic MAINTENANCE of water, steam, or other "fluid".

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    Grundfos and Teel makes those small "wet Rotor" pumps that all the "outdoor woodstove" people love.

    They sell these in a kit for just this "instant hot water" problem.

    You put a "Tee" at the faucet, and PEX back down to the Water heater.

    Loss's are the electricity, and any radiant heat from the Pipes (both the existing and the new return).

  20. #116
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    Taco is another company that makes great pumps, used for recirculating hot water in solar and floor heating among other uses.

    Pumps, Circulators & Accessories | Taco Comfort Solutions

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Grundfos and Teel makes those small "wet Rotor" pumps that all the "outdoor woodstove" people love.

    They sell these in a kit for just this "instant hot water" problem.

    You put a "Tee" at the faucet, and PEX back down to the Water heater.

    Loss's are the electricity, and any radiant heat from the Pipes (both the existing and the new return).
    Wintertime, the NET loss is ZERO, so long as all the kit is within the outer envelope of the facility.

    ALL the electricity "ends up as" heat. That, plus the "loss" off the plumbing all offsets how long the main heating system has to operate. Might be a mere fraction of a minute less, but it isn't a loss.

    Until summertime.... when one might simpy switch it OFF, if incomig water ain't as cold nor user's as picky.

    Hong Kong summers, our incoming "cold" water can go above 80 F, parts of the day most folk are not yet home from work and the rooftop storage buffer cistern has been under high sun-load all day.

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  24. #118
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    Small loop system like that would mostly thermosiphon. My original hydronic heat in this house didn't use circ pumps in the
    coal-fired boiler. It still thermosiphons in the summer, backwards! Basement loop gets cold enough to condense water out of the air,
    driven by the cool air in the upstairs AC'd bedrooms. Took me a while to figure out where the puddle on the shop floor was coming
    from...

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    Humm! Interesting reply. It seems to come from an owner or perhaps a high level manager. And it seems to make sense. Perhaps not for all, but .....



    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Now I am in 35k sq ft. air conditioned and heated. No choice. We make tool holders. We are grinding to a tenth or less. In the wintertime when our holders come back from either our heat treater or black oxide tool holders must sit for a min 12 hours before we start grinding. Most of the times its not an issue since we have a backlog.

    Bulding is prefab concrete walls with insulation in the middle. No windows, just some skylights. Can't complain, cost of doing business. Spent a decent amount on new air conditioners last year. More tonnage. Hurt a little till I did the math and it is a sub-fraction of my annual sales. Pinching pennies needlessly just hurts your business. If you wanna grow or even maintain where you are dont be cheap. Don't be stupid either. Do the math...

  26. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    I just got an e mail to this

    Heaters | Wall Electric | Salamander Electric Heater Wall Mount With 25'L Power Cord 240V 15 KW 3 Phase 36.1 Amps | 653568 - GLOBALindustrial.com

    Anybody with experience with these? I figure at my energy rate it's about $1.25 an hour to run for each one. 50K btu isn't a whole lot, I'd probably need more than one.


    Well now, thank you very much.... Now the whole Weather Channel page is full of those heaters!


    -----------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox


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