Ice Cold Shops: WHY no Heaters? - Page 7
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  1. #121
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    I`ve got Air to air heatpump in my shop. Also electric heating wires inside concrete slab. However never needed to turn it on as the heat pump has been adequate. I`m pretty sure that it is one of the cheapest method of heating. Plus I can cool down the shop at hot summer days for free with it, thanks to 6kWp solar panels...

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corn View Post
    I`ve got Air to air heatpump in my shop. Also electric heating wires inside concrete slab. However never needed to turn it on as the heat pump has been adequate. I`m pretty sure that it is one of the cheapest method of heating. Plus I can cool down the shop at hot summer days for free with it, thanks to 6kWp solar panels...
    Cheapest is burning free firewood....if'n you don't put a value on your time to gather/split/stack/load/clean the boiler....

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    if'n you don't put a value on your time to gather/split/stack/load/clean the boiler....
    Free will still cost ya.................................but I do like makin' firewood.

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  6. #124
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    Hey, Paul, if every shop you've ever worked in had heat, what is it that makes you think that there are "so many" shops without it?

  7. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by awander View Post
    Hey, Paul, if every shop you've ever worked in had heat, what is it that makes you think that there are "so many" shops without it?

    YouTube



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    I like my tools and equipment warm. And it would tear my gut to see a brand new end mill get rust... Made that mistake a long time ago. I have in floor radiant heat and absolutely love it. Was the best thing I ever did when I built.

    Thom J

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    Quote Originally Posted by david n View Post
    Free will still cost ya.................................but I do like makin' firewood.
    For some reason I enjoy cutting firewood. Is peaceful to me. heats you two or three times you know. Guess is my upbringing. So satisfying. Kind of like when the garden is producing and we make dinner from it. Work is not work if you enjoy it.

    Thom J

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  11. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corn View Post
    I`ve got Air to air heatpump in my shop. Also electric heating wires inside concrete slab. However never needed to turn it on as the heat pump has been adequate. I`m pretty sure that it is one of the cheapest method of heating. Plus I can cool down the shop at hot summer days for free with it, thanks to 6kWp solar panels...
    Interesting. What about the cost and maintenance of the solar panels? Must have to be some batteries and switch gear? Or is this just for heatpump?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomj View Post
    Interesting. What about the cost and maintenance of the solar panels? Must have to be some batteries and switch gear? Or is this just for heatpump?
    No batteries and virtually no maintenance required for the solar panels. Rain seems to be enough to clean pollen and any dirt. Panels are connected to three phase inverter which is connected to the main circuit breaker panel. So I’m not able to store the electricity and basically try to use as much as possible. However the kWh meter works both ways and the power company buys the excess energy that I can’t use. Price is bound to stock price of electricity, they just deduct 0.2 cent marginal of kWh price. However I have two year fixed price contract for the purchased electricity and the electricity price has gone up lately so basically they pay me more than what I pay from the electricity I use from the grid. Quite funny situation after all. I’m using around 60% of the produced electricity and 40% is sold.

    Not really a money maker, but I see it as an investment which gives value to the property and lower the electricity bills, now and in the future. And of course good feeling of doing my part for a bit greener future. I’ve crunched the numbers and with the current prices it would take around 21 years until the system would pay it back. Not taking into account possible property value rise, just things that can be measured. eg. price of the system, saved energy, sold energy etc. If it were purchased by loan money, interest would make the figures even worse… But even now 21 years, anyone can conclude that it will never actually pay itself off.

    As I live in the very north, around Alaska Anchorage latitude, we have quite short summer time, but on the other hand in the mid summer it is bright almost 24hrs a day so I get around 5000kWh of electricity a year from the panels.

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  14. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomj View Post
    I like my tools and equipment warm. And it would tear my gut to see a brand new end mill get rust... Made that mistake a long time ago. I have in floor radiant heat and absolutely love it. Was the best thing I ever did when I built.

    Thom J

    Carbide endmills don't rust.

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    My 900 square foot shop is attached to my house and both the shop and the house are high thermal mass annual passive solar. The concrete slab of the entire structure, including the 1000 square foot garage, have perimeter wing insulation and watershed umbrella. No concrete is expose to the elements as all edges are insulated with foam and covered with flashing and or dirt. Some portions of exterior walls are concrete also. The thermal mass of all the concrete and earth soaks up energy in the summer and stores it for the winter. Think energy, not temperature. Really good insulation and most windows on the south make for a very stable temperature inside.

    House only has a wood stove and a few oil heaters in the rooms far away from the center of the house where the stove is. Never seen rust on anything in the shop.

    Image is the wing insulation and watershed umbrella being installed on the south facing side of the house.

    Thermal mass - Wikipedia
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails pwi.jpg  

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  18. #132
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    Last shop I worked was 900 feet by 2200 feet with a 50-foot high bay.
    You wanna pay the heat bill on that up here in Buffalo?

    When that place was built in 1883 -- out of brick I must add - everything was powered by coal and steam. No problem staying warm back then.

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    That might be a fab shop, but it's not a precission parts machine shop.


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    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    That might be a fab shop, but it's not a precission parts machine shop.


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    Ox
    Hope your parts are better than your spelling.

  21. #135
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    Spellinng and OX don't make senees in the same sentanuace.
    Bob

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  23. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    That might be a fab shop, but it's not a precission parts machine shop.


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    Ox
    Precision is relative.

    There are actually other shops up here that are holding .004 on parts up to 20 tons. Which is OK because thats all their contracts call for. Completely unheated because the buildings are so huge. You know, VTL with an 18-foot chuck, built in 1929. HBM with a table the size of your house. That kind of thing.

    I was in maintenance for the most part, we had a separate building (say a pole barn) inside of the middle of the main building, which was heated and insulated with some decent machines.

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    What makes me think that? Well, numerous posts here and on other boards. In short, complaints by others here.

    I do have to confess, that I did work in at least one shop, an electronic one, where even though we did have heat, we never ran it. The shop, along with the rest of the electronic area, was in the middle of a large building in Iowa. The surrounding building provided almost ideal insulation. The winters were fierce sometimes going below -20. The electronic equipment put out so much heat that not only the shop, but the entire electronic equipment area had to be air conditioned year round, even in January and February with many feet of snow outside. And keeping AC units running when the outside temperature was below zero was a challenge all by itself; they just were not designed for that. When even one of the AC units went out, I had a panic on my hands and had to break out all the fans that I could find and open up all the doors. At one point I heard that management was going to install a new heating system in the building and we were slated for part of that new installation. I quickly told them that the payback period for that installation in my area would be well over 100 years because we simply never used any heat. We quickly got scratched off that plan. I wanted an additional AC unit, but that never flew.

    But that was only one shop where I have worked.



    Quote Originally Posted by awander View Post
    Hey, Paul, if every shop you've ever worked in had heat, what is it that makes you think that there are "so many" shops without it?

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    ??????????



    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    YouTube



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    Quote Originally Posted by laminar-flow View Post
    .... The concrete slab of the entire structure, including the 1000 square foot garage, have perimeter wing insulation and watershed umbrella. No concrete is expose to the elements as all edges are insulated with foam and covered with flashing and or dirt. Some portions of exterior walls are concrete also. The thermal mass of all the concrete and earth soaks up energy in the summer and stores it for the winter. Think energy, not temperature. Really good insulation and most windows on the south make for a very stable temperature inside.

    House only has a wood stove ...
    My place is similar. Wings are not quite as long, though, but deeper.

    Did you read "Passive Annual Heat Storage", too?

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    Yep, Passive Annual Heat Storage is a great book. The first chapter was on line but I now can't find it. I'm sure others would be interested in the concept when building or modifying a shop. Some of my notes and lessons learned.

    I would not recommend berming a concrete wall more than a foot or two except on walls that do not have windows and then only about 3 or 4 feet. It just gets too complicated and the benefit is not worth it. On south facing walls with solar gain windows, I would keep it level. On walls with windows, I'd also keep it level or bermed in a bit. No concrete should be exposed to the elements. Every surface should be insulated with 2 to 4 inches of foam. Water should be shed away from the insulated ground around the structure.

    Full Passive Annual Heat Storage would be difficult and one would end up with a weird structure. Try for 70% - 80% and do the rest with electricity or wood.

    Most windows on the south, a few on the east, even less on the north, and none on the west. Select less coating on the glass on the south if possible. Think lots of thermal mass that is well insulated from the outside and easy to conduct energy on the inside of the structure. Darker colors on the concrete work better than lighter but do compromise so you don't build a dark bat cave.

    I'm sure your place is as comfortable as mine. We get a visitor in when it is cold outside and they walk in and say, "well yes you have a heater, it is warm in here". And I spend the next half our explaining that the heat energy they feel was from the summer. So nice.


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