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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    The controversy is only coming from the 'usual suspects'
    Those of us born without the sheep gene ? Maybe ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    The theory as of late for Alzheimers is that everyone has Herpes...simplex 1 in them.

    Resides in the spinal column, your immune system is strong enough to "keep it at bay".

    Adding in the stress of making antibodies to fight the flu shot, knocks this down somewhat.

    If the flu shot is NOT what is floating around out there, the body is doubly taxed trying to fight the flu.

    And the Herpes simplex 1 travels up the spinal cord, entering the brain thru the blood brain barrier. And the "White Matter" seen on the brain is the attempt of the immune system to rid the brain of said HS1. Unfortunately, the white matter cannot pass thru the blood brain barrier, and get flushed out.

    It is a theory being worked on by science.
    OK, you claim science supports your post.

    Please supply a reference for this assertion because I could find no study to support a link between flu vaccination and Alzheimer’s. In fact, just the opposite seems to be true.

    Past exposure to vaccines and subsequent risk of Alzheimer's disease
    According to this analysis of data from a large-scale longitudinal study of elderly Canadians, vaccination against diphtheria or tetanus, poliomyelitis or influenza was associated with lower risk for Alzheimer's disease than no vaccination.”

    Is There a Link Between Alzheimer’s Disease and the Flu Shot? | Cognitive Vitality | Alzheimer's Drug Discovery Foundation

    WHAT THE EVIDENCE SAYS: There is no peer-reviewed scientific evidence supporting this claim, instead, there is evidence to support an association between getting the flu shot and a decreased risk for dementia.”

    A third reference:
    Flu Shots Cause Alzheimer’s Disease-Fiction! - Truth or Fiction?

    The US CDC and the Canadian counterpart and the Alzheimer’s association all say that immunizations reduce the risk of Alheimers. Herpes Simplex type 1 Infection (which affects more than half but by no means all people below age 50 and significantly less people over age 50) is itself a positive risk factor.



    Now before some individuals cry “lies, lies, lies” I would ask that they cite a single credible reference indicating immunizations of ANY type increase Alheimers risk. Just sneering, claiming superior genetics, claiming bias is not enough.

    So, I would suggest that if anyone is claiming scientific knowledge on this matter, they need to show us the basis for their claims, not simply related to the flu vaccine/Alzheimer’s malarkey, but other claims of vaccine being totally useless, etc. Otherwise, it is just so much empty misleading and potentially harmful misinformation.

    Denis

    Added: I say carbide is softer than HSS and is inferior as a cutting tool to HSS. It is true cuz I say so...

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    [QUOTE=digger doug;3438141]The theory as of late for Alzheimers is that everyone has Herpes...simplex 1 in them.
    Resides in the spinal column, your immune system is strong enough to "keep it at bay".
    Adding in the stress of making antibodies to fight the flu shot, knocks this down somewhat."

    Huh. Good thing your body doesn't get stressed making antibodies when you actually *catch* the influenza
    virus.

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    Oh brother...And the earth is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, and CO2 isn’t a greenhouse gas.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by rklopp View Post
    Oh brother...And the earth is flat, the moon is made of green cheese, and CO2 isn’t a greenhouse gas.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    If you say so, it must be true. No need for any proof. Just say it is so, even more so if you say it loudly, and then assure us you are not one to blindly follow the herd cuz you were born smarter than that. Works for me.

    Denis

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgfoster View Post
    If you say so, it must be true. No need for any proof. Just say it is so, even more so if you say it loudly, and then assure us you are not one to blindly follow the herd cuz you were born smarter than that. Works for me.
    So you are calling the two of us with friends crippled by flu shots liars ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    So you are calling the two of us with friends crippled by flu shots liars ?
    No, I am not calling anyone a liars. That term was introduced into this thread by someone else. But, I am saying a distinction should be made between drawing conclusions based on anecdotal evidence vs those based on scientific studies. Just because two people on a forum with tens of thousands of members who know of a rare disease encounter each other does not mean the disease is not uncommon. But it could mislead them to believe the disease is common. And they could then take actions based on their miscalculations that, while sincerely believed, may nevertheless put themselves at risk and might cause them to feel they are being misled and cause them to advocate for dangerous choices. That is what I think is the case regarding Guillian-Barre and flu vaccine.

    A good example of this kind of thinking occurred a few years back in the town of 100,000 people where I live. A grade schooler had the rare but very emotion-stirring "flesh-eating bactreria." Thousands of people either knew that youngster, his family immediate member(s), friends of family, or someone who knew someone etc. But there was still just one case of the disease in the region, not just the city I live in. At the same time, across the country there were a couple dozen of cases with thousands of people per case who somehow connected with the victims of each of those occurrences of the disease. Pretty soon people began to panic and feel like they should not send their kids to school or let them go to friends houses etc. because they felt like the disease was "everywhere" especially if a few people were, by chance, connected to two cases.

    Similarly, drawing conclusions about the incidence of a disease and recommending actions based on anecdotes can actually cause harm. It should not be surprising if two people on a forum with tens of thousands of members might actually each know of a case of a rare condition. But that does not indicate the condition is common. That is especially true if the disease is well-tracked by agencies interested know the true incidence of disease. GBS as related to influenza vaccine and other adverse outcomes are formally tracked by the CDC in the US and by similar agencies in almost every other country , even third world countries. I know of no credible evidence to suggest GBS is a common outcome related to flu vaccine.

    I think it is unhelpful for people to make claims of fact when they have no supporting evidence for those claims. On this thread we have seen a good number of claims of fact that are "contrarian" to put it politely. But we have not seen any data to support those claims.

    I am simply trying to point out the huge difference in claims made based on anecdote vs scientific study. Anecdotal claims are a dime a dozen requiring no effort, survey of available scientific evidence, citation of such evidence, or any other support other than blurting out a statement as being factual. To accurately analyze data and draw founded conclusions takes a huge amount of effort by folks well versed in the numerous potential pitfalls of biostatistics. The CDC and other similar world agencies have worked long and hard to develop their recommendations. If someone is going to claim those recommendations are lies, or based on a conspiracy of the agency and drug companies, they are free to do so. BUT, those accusers had better be able to back up their claims with their own work and data analysis. Otherwise, making such claims is like yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater. We have free speech in this country. true. But we also owe it to each other to use it responsibly and to treat each other with respect.

    Denis

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    I can't tell if Dgfoster is for or against getting a flu shot...??

    I can say this. I've had the flu once maybe. I was about 20 years old and was so sick could not even get out of bed for a few days. I've never had a flu shot. I probably won't get one. Yes, I could die from the flu as I get older. I could die from complications of a flu shot / bad reaction. I could also die in a car accident soooo....

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgfoster View Post
    OK, you claim science supports your post.

    Please supply a reference for this assertion because I could find no study to support a link between flu vaccination and Alzheimer’s. In fact, just the opposite seems to be true.

    Past exposure to vaccines and subsequent risk of Alzheimer's disease
    According to this analysis of data from a large-scale longitudinal study of elderly Canadians, vaccination against diphtheria or tetanus, poliomyelitis or influenza was associated with lower risk for Alzheimer's disease than no vaccination.”

    Is There a Link Between Alzheimer’s Disease and the Flu Shot? | Cognitive Vitality | Alzheimer's Drug Discovery Foundation

    WHAT THE EVIDENCE SAYS: There is no peer-reviewed scientific evidence supporting this claim, instead, there is evidence to support an association between getting the flu shot and a decreased risk for dementia.”

    A third reference:
    Flu Shots Cause Alzheimer’s Disease-Fiction! - Truth or Fiction?

    The US CDC and the Canadian counterpart and the Alzheimer’s association all say that immunizations reduce the risk of Alheimers. Herpes Simplex type 1 Infection (which affects more than half but by no means all people below age 50 and significantly less people over age 50) is itself a positive risk factor.



    Now before some individuals cry “lies, lies, lies” I would ask that they cite a single credible reference indicating immunizations of ANY type increase Alheimers risk. Just sneering, claiming superior genetics, claiming bias is not enough.

    So, I would suggest that if anyone is claiming scientific knowledge on this matter, they need to show us the basis for their claims, not simply related to the flu vaccine/Alzheimer’s malarkey, but other claims of vaccine being totally useless, etc. Otherwise, it is just so much empty misleading and potentially harmful misinformation.

    Denis

    Added: I say carbide is softer than HSS and is inferior as a cutting tool to HSS. It is true cuz I say so...
    Not gonna take the time, got more work to doo helping people.

    Plus your just gonna rebut everything I write/say, flying the company flag.

    My point was to Limey, that not all "I won't take the flu shot" are from "anti Vaxxers" that don't want ANY vaccination.

    The establishment really blew it last year with their choice of vaccine being under 20% effective.

    The people making the decision should have consequences attached to their actions.

    The Totalitarian Militraistic actions of said group towards the others also cast doubt & shadows upon their work. "You can't get the flue from it, you did something wrong"
    "It's your fault, blah, blah, blah"

    Yup, blame the customer, great business plan....

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    Different people can have different reactions to anything that goes in the body.

    Because a statistcally insignificant part of the popluation that gets a flu shot develops a dangerous reaction to it, does not mean the entire population should not take a flu shot.

    A whole lot more people die every year from the flu, than does from taking the flu shot!!

    And yes, there are thousands of types of flu, and the shot is engineered for the most common types going around that year. But what you need to realize is, the flu shot not only helps protect you from certain strains of flu, it also "wakes up" your immune system, and gets it more ready to battle any type of flu virus you may be exposed to.

    And all the billions of Indians and Chinese who don't get vaccinated for the flu, well they are just helping all those flu virus's mutate, spread throughout the world, and kill thousands of people.

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    Practical Machinist is supposed to be a forum for professional machinists. To me, this means people who have taken the time and energy to learn a great deal about their area of work. I respect the machining knowledge shared on this forum. A person, who's knowledge of machining I respect, made a well intentioned suggestion for folks to get a flu shot. I suspect Limi would be the first to admit he is not a medical expert. Denis Foster is (or was- not sure if he's retired?) a medical expert. A professional. Perhaps people who are not medical experts shouldn't troll him? To put it bluntly: how would a professional, successful machinist feel if 'Harry Home Shop' came into their business and told them how wrong they were about how they do their job?

    Respectfully,
    Stan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky7 View Post
    Practical Machinist is supposed to be a forum for professional machinists. To me, this means people who have taken the time and energy to learn a great deal about their area of work. I respect the machining knowledge shared on this forum. A person, who's knowledge of machining I respect, made a well intentioned suggestion for folks to get a flu shot. I suspect Limi would be the first to admit he is not a medical expert. Denis Foster is (or was- not sure if he's retired?) a medical expert. A professional. Perhaps people who are not medical experts shouldn't troll him? To put it bluntly: how would a professional, successful machinist feel if 'Harry Home Shop' came into their business and told them how wrong they were about how they do their job?

    Respectfully,
    Stan.
    You would be right...in a perfect world.

    Unfortunately, Politics has crept into every facet of life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky7 View Post
    Denis Foster is (or was- not sure if he's retired?) a medical expert. A professional. Perhaps people who are not medical experts shouldn't troll him? To put it bluntly: how would a professional, successful machinist feel if 'Harry Home Shop' came into their business and told them how wrong they were about how they do their job?
    'Medical professionals' kill thousands of peopla annually because they can't bother to wash their hands. They are also overjoyed to prescribe various drugs as the solution for everything without bothering to worry about the consequences. Some of us happen to think that modern medicine for life-threatening situations is okay, but Mom Nature has developed a pretty good system for lesser diseases. It was 'medical professionals' who gave us thalidomide, too.

    I will continue to think for myself, thank you very much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky7 View Post
    Practical Machinist is supposed to be a forum for professional machinists. To me, this means people who have taken the time and energy to learn a great deal about their area of work. I respect the machining knowledge shared on this forum. A person, who's knowledge of machining I respect, made a well intentioned suggestion for folks to get a flu shot. I suspect Limi would be the first to admit he is not a medical expert. Denis Foster is (or was- not sure if he's retired?) a medical expert. A professional. Perhaps people who are not medical experts shouldn't troll him? To put it bluntly: how would a professional, successful machinist feel if 'Harry Home Shop' came into their business and told them how wrong they were about how they do their job?

    Respectfully,
    Stan.
    Actually, Stan, the initials after my name should in no way insulate me from any deserved criticism or correction nor elevate me to any special position. If the person coming into my office had good reason to point out my errors or suggest a better course, it would behoove me to listen and follow their suggestions just like it would behoove the seasoned machinist to listen to the apprentice IF the apprentice had good reasons and could show why his/her suggestion was valid. But, in either the shop or practice situation, if someone is BSing and can show no basis for their "contrary" ideas when invited to do so, they can expect similar treatment. Notice, I did not call on anyone to show their credentials or authority, I simply asked for them to support their contention with some credible evidence. So far, those invited to support their off-beat contentions have all been "too busy." That kind of response should be expected to receive a similar welcome on the shop floor or in a healthcare venue.

    It is all about stating reasonably verifiable facts and manning up to defend statements of fact on their merits. Or expect to be challenged.

    Denis

    PS: I am old enough to remember the vax-free days of polio, measles, small pox, mumps, etc. There are still well-known pockets of resistance to even these well recognized preventive measures and the arguments sound just the same as we have heard here. I feel some obligation to speak out clearly or else silence becomes complicity.

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    dgfoster — ya know, Dr Wakefield has published some seminal papers on this topic....


    For those whose are in the field, you’ll get the joke without googling it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgfoster View Post
    PS: I am old enough to remember the vax-free days of polio, measles, small pox, mumps, etc.
    There. You have just demonstrated that you have no sense of proportion. Polio vs measles is like comparing the plague to the sniffles. It's stupid.

    There are still well-known pockets of resistance to even these well recognized preventive measures ...
    Well-recognized preventive measures for small illnesses are covered by the human immune system. That's what it is there for, and your heavy-handed "cures" for what Mom Nature has been dealing with for a hundred thousand years are badly thought out.

    Go ahead and take your flu shot, it's your body and your decision. But telling other people what to do is playing God, and you ain't He. You have no idea what fucking reaction they may have.

    Let people decide for themselves, honestly, without this stastical crap. When you are the one with Guillan-Barre, that "one in a million" lie doesn't help much. (And it is a lie. MANY more than one in a million have severe reactions to the flu vaccines.)

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    Oh FFS , please remind me to keep my mouth shut next year!

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    Limi, please continue to speak up. Your comment was wise and appreciated. You're less likely to hear from the folks that you've positively influenced.

    Denis, my point was not to single anyone out based on credentials. Rather to ask that some respect be given to people who have earned it by taking the time and effort to learn something. Doesn't matter to me if this is a machinist, welder, or doctor. Someone who has done a time served apprenticeship will know more than the general public. So will a medical doctor. Well thought out debate and in some cases disagreement is fine. Trolling with only ignorance to back onself up is not. EBM, no?

    If a person wants to take medieval level risks with preventable infectious diseases, fine, but please realize that this is precisely what you are doing.

    Regards,
    Stan.

    On edit: Denis, you're not that old ;-) The last case of naturally occuring smallpox in North America was in the 1940's. Last case worldwide was 1980. Yes, research labs around the world do have stocks of smallpox so there is still a tiny risk. Measles OTOH, don't get me started...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Limy Sami View Post
    Oh FFS , please remind me to keep my mouth shut next year!
    NO !

    A good "coming out" for the populace, to see just what they believe, and how much they believe, is a good thing.

    You "shook the tree" and a bunch-O nutz fell out....

    No one got hurt, no forms were needed filled out.
    Last edited by digger doug; 11-06-2019 at 08:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky7 View Post
    On edit: Denis, you're not that old ;-) The last case of naturally occuring smallpox in North America was in the 1940's. Last case worldwide was 1980. Yes, research labs around the world do have stocks of smallpox so there is still a tiny risk. Measles OTOH, don't get me started...
    You are right that I did not personally see an active case of smallpox nor did I see an active case of polio professionally. But when I was taking Infectious Disease and Biostatistics courses in medical school, those diseases were still very much players on the world stage and we were trained via lecture, films, and text to recognize and treat the diseases should we encounter them---re-emergence in the developed world was very much a concern in those years. The aftermath of their toll is still evident and was quite fresh in my early years of practice. Polio is still active in various pockets in the world and a good number of kids I knew in my community my age were becoming ill (a few died) with polio when I was a pre-teen. That is when the Salk and Sabin vaccines came out and that stopped polio in North America.

    Denis


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