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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky7 View Post
    Trolling with only ignorance to back onself up is not. EBM, no?
    Anyone who disagrees with you must be a troll ? Do you realize why Hillary lost the election yet ?

    If a person wants to take medieval level risks with preventable infectious diseases, fine, but please realize that this is precisely what you are doing.
    Have you ever known anyone with Guillan-Barre ?

    Measles OTOH, don't get me started...
    Me too, but I suspect on the other side

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    I'm not going to make a recommendation for anyone since they'll do what they want regardless. Just my personal experience and perspective.

    I grew up in one of those shit hole countries our president hates. We lived in a small village in the northeast of the country more recently in the news with the Boko Haram movement and visited Chibok where the girls were kidnapped if you want a clue. There was a hospital built there, but probably the only one within 100 miles in any direction. No such thing as routine health care for the locals. If something happened to you, you got along if you could. If you couldn't, you tried to get to the hospital, so much of what they saw were advanced cases. Malaria was endemic as well as biharzia, trypanomiasis in places, hookworm, guinea worm and others. Even with required inoculations and daily anti-malarials we still all got mumps, measles, chicken pox and all the usual passed around stuff before the current availability of good vaccines.

    I am VERY appreciative of what modern medicine has to offer to avoid a lot of what I saw (and endured) as a kid. So they're not 100% effective or 100% free of possible side effects? I'll take those odds any day, thanks.

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    Allopathic medicine summarized:

    What you directly observe/experience = meaningless anecdote
    What they claim to have observed = trustworthy epidemiological study

  4. #84
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    [QUOTE=EmanuelGoldstein;3438759] Polio vs measles is like comparing the plague to the sniffles.

    Ah, so hardly anybody in the world actually *died* from measles, right?

    Oh. maybe a few. Around 100,000 people died. Probably they all caught the disease FROM the
    vaccine, right??

    Measles

    Hope ya don't catch the "sniffles."

  5. #85
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    I'll take a crack at what DGFoster was asking for when it comes to backing up statements with data.

    Guillain-Barre syndrome (G-B) can be a devastating disease. Before anyone gets hurt by statements...none of my statements are meant to diminish the pain and suffering that anyone has had from this horrible disease. I'm not encouraging anyone to take the vaccine or not take the vaccine. Make up your own mind.

    While we don't know what causes G-B specifically, it has been linked to Epstein-Barr virus infections, Campylobacter enteritis and influenza-like illnesses [1,2,3]. There isn't a clear link to show if true, H_N_, influenza infections should be included in the influenza-like illnesses as causative for G-B. In the past, G-B was a complication of vaccinations [3,4] -- most notably the H1N1 vaccine of the 1970s. Old formulations of the rabies vaccine has also been linked to G-B [5]. However, the new formulations of the influenza vaccine have not been shown to have an association with G-B [3,5] and one study even found a protective effect from having the influenza vaccine [2].

    Now, to the question about effectiveness. The first meta-analysis on influenza vaccine effectiveness (to my knowledge) was back in 2012 in the Lancet [6]. That study showed that the flu vaccine has good years and bad years. The vaccine was shown to be effective in 8 out of the 12 years that the studies covered [6]. You can look at that as a good ratio or bad ratio. That's up to you. It has been shown to be effective. It has been shown to be ineffective. It is far from a perfect vaccine.



    1. Hughes and Cornblath, Lancet 2005 https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...665-9/fulltext

    2. Tam, et al, PLOS One 2007. Guillain-Barre Syndrome and Preceding Infection with Campylobacter, Influenza and Epstein-Barr Virus in the General Practice Research Database

    3. Israeli, et al, Clin Rev Allergy Immunol 2012. Guillain-Barre syndrome--a classical autoimmune disease triggered by infection or vaccination. - PubMed - NCBI

    4. Lehmann, et al, Lancet 2010. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...140-7/fulltext

    5. Haber, et al, Drug Safety, 2009. Vaccines and Guillain-Barre Syndrome | SpringerLink

    6. Osterholm, et al, Lancet, 2012. https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...7330991170295X




    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    Have you ever known anyone with Guillan-Barre ?
    Yes I have met people who have had G-B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by medsar View Post
    Yes I have met people who have had G-B.
    Sure, they wheeled them out for you to look at.

    And then you walked away.

    How convenient (for you at least).

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Sure, they wheeled them out for you to look at.

    And then you walked away.

    How convenient (for you at least).

    Of all the things I wrote about in my post, that is the part you are going to come after me about?!?!? Seriously??

    Ok, Doug. Were you present when ‘they’ wheeled ‘them’ out for me to ‘look at’? Did you personally witness me walk away (conveniently)? Since you publicly said I gazed at people who are suffering as if window shopping, then you can publicly state whether you physically witnessed these things.




    Next time, I’ll write that I’ve gotten to know many people with G-B over the years.

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    If I ran a drug company and was greedy bastard, I would lobby and do whatever I could to push flu shots on to the public and make it a standard practice. Their effectiveness is questionable according to various studies. I am not against people who want to get flu shots but, I don't get them. I got a shot once when I was 17 and then ended up getting the full blown flu and I will never do it again. The only times I get sick is if I am not getting enough rest and overworking physically. I know multiple people who have gotten sick shortly after taking a flu shot. I have been fine my whole life and rather not risk other potential problems and complications. Doctors said that opioids were not addictive and were fine and now we have a full blow epidemic right? Again, if people want to take shots go ahead. I'm more worried about getting injured on the job than I am of the flu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyman View Post
    If I ran a drug company and was greedy bastard, I would lobby and do whatever I could to push flu shots on to the public and make it a standard practice. Their effectiveness is questionable according to various studies. I am not against people who want to get flu shots but, I don't get them. I got a shot once when I was 17 and then ended up getting the full blown flu and I will never do it again. The only times I get sick is if I am not getting enough rest and overworking physically. I know multiple people who have gotten sick shortly after taking a flu shot. I have been fine my whole life and rather not risk other potential problems and complications. Doctors said that opioids were not addictive and were fine and now we have a full blow epidemic right? Again, if people want to take shots go ahead. I'm more worried about getting injured on the job than I am of the flu.
    Your foundation for decision making ("I got a shot once ..") or ("I know multiple people who have gotten sick ...") or using opioid manufacturers as substantiation probably says everything. That is, other than your screen name calling out your research strategy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyman View Post
    If I ran a drug company and was greedy bastard, I would lobby and do whatever I could to push flu shots on to the public and make it a standard practice. Their effectiveness is questionable according to various studies. I am not against people who want to get flu shots but, I don't get them. I got a shot once when I was 17 and then ended up getting the full blown flu and I will never do it again. The only times I get sick is if I am not getting enough rest and overworking physically. I know multiple people who have gotten sick shortly after taking a flu shot. I have been fine my whole life and rather not risk other potential problems and complications. Doctors said that opioids were not addictive and were fine and now we have a full blow epidemic right? Again, if people want to take shots go ahead. I'm more worried about getting injured on the job than I am of the flu.
    .

    Oh, sure, you ran a drug company. You betcha. I once ran NASA but left that to run the CIA, under cover, of course.

    Denis

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    My old man got polio in North Africa,one ankle collapsed....It meant he was swapped by the Eyeties in an invalid exchange,and came back to Oz ,the rest of the unit were sent to Singapore ,and killed by the Japs.......but for sure we were first in line for the polio vaccine at school ,about 10ccs in a horse size syringe...When I was a kid ,a lot of people were in "iron lungs" from polio,everyone seemed to have at least one relation in one.....Common belief in those days it was spread by the Jacaranda trees,came with the purple flowers...was actually spread by parrots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Ah, so hardly anybody in the world actually *died* from measles, right?

    Oh. maybe a few. Around 100,000 people died.
    More people die from falling down in the shower. Let's outlaw showers.

    Quote Originally Posted by medsar View Post
    I'm not encouraging anyone to take the vaccine or not take the vaccine. Make up your own mind.
    This is fair. Put out honest data and let people make up their own minds. It's the force-feeding that is repulsive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dgfoster View Post
    Well, for the contrarians and other conspiracy theorists: this is one dandy conspiracy---the mother of all conspiracies if you will. Because somehow the evil drug companies have convinced the entire World's heathcare systems to go along with their little scheme. I mean even those countries with free health care and/or under (OMG!) commie dictatorships still seem to believe the myth that the theorists have cunningly seen through. Never mind that the conspiracists have no data (of course the conspiracists know it is all kept under wraps by THEM).

    A perfect example of the lengths that THEY will go through to deceive the World is our own US Center for Disease Control. They cook up all this elaborate scam data showing clearly the yearly incidence of influenza, the safety and claercut effectiveness of the vaccine (yes most years very effective and some years not as much---like last year) and the incidence---minuscule of significant adverse reactions. They even went so far as to send me large numbers of flu patients (obviously faking the fevers I measured and pneumonias and other complications) every year in the months of roughly December through March. They did all that for every primary care physician I ever talked to. Now that is an elaborate ruse. But when millions are at stake nothing is too difficult or costly or hard to believe. Those evil-doers!

    Congratulations to the conspiracy theorists, who by simple dint of their superior intellect and suspicious nature (no scientific studies needed) can see through this scam. By all means, spread the word and save the World from this vicious, self-serving scam. Stop all those idiotic doctors who only went through, at a minimum, 7 years of post-graduate training and who on average have about 15 to 18 year's practice experience each. (I, for example, had 33 years practice experience after I got my BS in Physics, followed by 4 years for my MD and then 3 years residency training) I mean, what does that lot know compared with a bona fide conspiracy theorist?!

    Thank you for you insights.
    Denis
    My brother in law is a conspiracy guy. Dont get me wrong....conspiracies happen....just probably not to the extent that he and some others believe. Typically it would take too many people staying quiet to maintain the conspiracy. People can't keep things secret.
    My favorite phrase of his when he is trying to explain the newest conspiracy, or why we should take 5 scrillion times the daily dose of any given vitamin or mineral is ".....I have researched it....." What "....I have researched it...." means to me is that he sat up late on multiple nights searching around on the internet ( google search term = goofy shit no one will believe) eating cheetohs and drinking Monster...or NOS....until he found something that has no scientific evidence to support and then proclaims something to the effect of "....evil corporation...." or "....government officials dont want this known for financial reasons...." or my favorite...." They have been doing this for centuries in north jackstanistan"
    I guess I am old school in that I want to believe "researched it..." would require test tubes, bunson burners, maybe a rat or 2.....at least some advanced math and a calculator....

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    This is fair. Put out honest data and let people make up their own minds. It's the force-feeding that is repulsive.
    So when does ''advice'', ''become force feeding'' ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Limy Sami View Post
    So when does ''advice'', ''become force feeding'' ?
    You can stop shaking that tree now Limy....

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    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    You can stop shaking that tree now Limy....

    So sidestep the awkward ones huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Limy Sami View Post
    So sidestep the awkward ones huh?
    No, I like you, I consider you a friend.

    I don't want to argue how medicine (in this country at least) is driving towards "single payer", and how the doctors are lapping it up, they are power hungry.

    People say we have the best care in the world, we may have at one time, but not now.

    Doctors here just hate it when you come in with meaningful well though out questions,
    ones that you can show references to online resources, even ones from established main stream medical journals.

    The disease of "not invented here" is terrible with our doctors.

    The flu shot "deciders" got it right only 20% last year, a terrible record.
    Years past they where better, and nothing is done about it, no change in management, no changing to new types of decision making, Nada.

    And no admittance of wrongdoing either.

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    One awkward aspect of the flu vaccine development business is that it's impossible for them to ever be completely right. That is, until there's a time machine to go forward and see what strains actually develop and mutate between when decisions are made for the formula each year and the actual time for it to be effective in the population. They make their best guesses about what is about to happen in the next one to two years but that's as good as it gets. Then the real world takes over, rolls the dice and determines whether they get kudos for a job well done or the raspberry for choosing the wrong viruses.

    And then a bunch of people will claim that the doctors must be complete idiots and THEY will never get a shot again. Life's nothing if not amusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyman View Post
    I got a shot once when I was 17 and then ended up getting the full blown flu and I will never do it again.
    The flu shot is formulated as a defence to the coming flu season, so it's a best guess as to what's likely the predominate strains are to be.

    So the flu shot you did get, didn't cover the flu strain you caught.

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  23. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    More people die from falling down in the shower. Let's outlaw showers.
    .
    That's a lie. 100,000 people do not die from falling down in the shower in one year. Heck 90 percent of the
    people on the planet don't have a toilet, much less a shower to fall in.


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