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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Well I think that double opposed goes back to the steam days eh?
    It's not a new concept, but hard on real estate!

    If it is more efficient, then it would have application in stationary power, or even big ship, but I don't see it going down the road any time soon.


    -------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Yeah very hard on the equipment. IIRC they are more efficient at harnessing more energy from combustion vs a normal piston engine, but of course the lifespan and cost associated are a problem and the increased efficiency is lost in Parasitic drag from the supporting valve/drive train. I’m no expert.

    Definitely not a new idea, and it’s definitely not dead yet.

    There are much more radical engines out there that are far more efficient but once again you can’t build’em cheap (nor maintain them) like you can a piston engine!

    The gm 350 diesel also suffered greatly to the hands of countless service mechs and private mechanics without proper understanding of the engine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Well I think that double opposed goes back to the steam days eh?
    It's not a new concept, but hard on real estate!

    If it is more efficient, then it would have application in stationary power, or even big ship, but I don't see it going down the road any time soon.
    Maybe not the road but they were used in power plants, small ships, tugs, submarines, and locomotives. Search Fairbanks-Morse opposed piston diesel engine.

    I do remember being in the SF railroad station when SP was running the Trainmasters. Those things would shit-n-git, they used them strictly on the commuters because they'd accelerate so hard. They were an impressive engine.

    I've never heard of it on steam but that doesn't mean much, lots of things I never heard of

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    Commer knocker ...six pistons ,three cylinders ....run for a month on a tank of fuel.....Chrysler killed the engine ,and a bigger one with 8 pistons/4 cylinders when they took over Rootes group,because they had a deal with Cummins to build a corporate engine.....the Cummins V8/185 was the result ,a total POS ,that sent Chrysler broke ,and the French got control of Rootes,and killed all the English trucks as competition for their French garbage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Well I think that double opposed goes back to the steam days eh?
    It's not a new concept, but hard on real estate!

    If it is more efficient, then it would have application in stationary power, or even big ship, but I don't see it going down the road any time soon.


    -------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    The Fairbanks-Morse OP engine was not hard on real estate but actually very compact for the horsepower produced.

    They used two crankshafts, upper and lower connected by a vertical bevel gear train that had the upper lag by a couple of degrees crank rotation. No valves, just an intake port on the bottom and scavenger exhaust on the upper port.
    Roots blower blew air in through the lower port and ejecting exhaust gases out the upper ports. Injector was in the middle of the liner assembly which was 2X as long as a single piston engine. Engine used an inline configuration.

    They were actually compact enough that the Navy preferred them so much that half of the Allied subs in WWII were powered by them. I think standard configuration was two on Port side and two on Starboard side with both banks end to end with a walkway down the middle. The upper crank cover was rounded as was the lower crankcase allowing the engine3 to fit very tight up to the subs hull.

    The thermal efficiency came in due to the effective engine stroke being double of a single crankshaft engine and yet had half the mean piston speed of an equivalent 4 cycle engine. The two cycle design also gives a power pulse every crank rotation which also cuts the parasitic losses approx. in half. The lack of any valve train about equals the parasitic loss from the two crankshaft bevel gear drive connecting the crankshafts.

    The Fairbanks Morse engine was also very simple. All you had were the two crankshafts, an oil pump, roots blower, and the cylinder line with two pistons and connecting rods per cylinder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Well I think that double opposed goes back to the steam days eh?
    It's not a new concept, but hard on real estate!

    If it is more efficient, then it would have application in stationary power, or even big ship, but I don't see it going down the road any time soon.


    -------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Well, they did put these in loco's (UK), and one NYC Fire truck....
    Napier Deltic - Wikipedia

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    As far as opposed piston engines...
    Recently there was / (is?) Achates Power.

    Industry Leading Engine Solutions - Achates Power

    They got as far as building a small fleet of beta test vehicles.
    Opposed Piston Diesel Engines Are Crazy Efficient - YouTube

    Then ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3t3d View Post
    As far as opposed piston engines...
    Recently there was / (is?) Achates Power.

    Industry Leading Engine Solutions - Achates Power

    They got as far as building a small fleet of beta test vehicles.
    Opposed Piston Diesel Engines Are Crazy Efficient - YouTube

    Then ??
    If I remember correctly, they originally received a grant from the military for this. Cummins has now entered the picture and working with Achates Power on a real product.

    https://mart.cummins.com/imagelibrar...es/0058689.pdf

    Military applications are EPA exempt so that makes this a natural. I suspect that the emissions side is the challenge however the Cummins injection technology is a probable partial solution to get the emissions compliant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    Military applications are EPA exempt so that makes this a natural. I suspect that the emissions side is the challenge however the Cummins injection technology is a probable partial solution to get the emissions compliant.
    Probably never will .... two-strokes have a serious emissions problem with gases mixing

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3t3d View Post
    Actually, the Oldsmobile diesel block was stronger than the gas block.
    Joe Mondello sold a conversion kit to use the diesel block as a basis for a strong gas motor for drag racing.
    Talked to Joe one day. Real nice guy.
    back in about 78 or so when i started in the automotive machine shop the vaga and the olds 350 diesel were are bread and butter i always disliked it when people would say the 350 olds diesel was a gas motor conversion well yes and no its not like you took a gas motor put a conversion kit in it and presto now its a diesel but yes your right about the block the crank and rods from the diesel being the start of a hell of a strong olds 350 and with only 4 head bolts per cly not a lot of support would pop the head off some of them bolts

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    old school stuff

    Italian automobile company Lancia was the first to manufacture cars with V4 and V6 engines in series-production. This started with a number of V4-engine families, that were produced from the 1920s through 1970s.

    The Lancia V4 pioneered the narrow-angle V engine design, more recently seen in Volkswagen's VR5 and VR6 engines. By using very shallow V-angles — between 10° and 20° — both rows of cylinders could be housed in an engine block with a single cylinder head, like a straight engine. A determining characteristic was the use of overhead camshafts (either single or double), in which a camshaft would serve the same function for all cylinders — in both cylinder banks.

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    [QUOTE=kustomizer;3752084]I had an old guy some years back that wanted to have me make a diesel engine with 2 four cylinder crankshafts, 1 cam, a big generator for a flywheel on each crank. The pistons were opposed running at each other. the generators were going to run a motor on each wheel of an automobile, he was convinced it was the next big thing, he is gone now and I never got very interested though I would like to have seen it run.[/QUOT


    The Junkers Jumo 205 Diesel Engine Junkers Jumo Diesel aircraft engines are the only large engines functioning on the two-cycle principle which are used in modern aviation. They are built in Germany and are used extensively in both civil and military airplanes in that country. The best known model is the Jumo 205 which has been built by the thousands in a specially-equipped factory. This engine is not supercharged although it is equipped with a centrifugal-type blower. Like other Jumo Diesels it is water-cooled and of low frontal area (Fig. 35). The Jumo 205 has six in-line cylinders and two crankshafts-one at the top and the other at the bottom of the cylinder block connected by a train of gear wheels. It also has two opposed pistons and two connecting rods in each cylinder so that virtually it is a twelve-cylinder engine. It has no cylinder heads and the combustion chamber in each cylinder is formed between the crowns of the two pistons when they are at the tops of their strokes. This type of Diesel forms an interesting contrast to the opposed-piston gasoline engine which has one crankshaft and one or more pairs of opposed pistons and cylinders with separate heads and combustion

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1yesca View Post
    back in about 78 or so when i started in the automotive machine shop the vaga and the olds 350 diesel were are bread and butter[.]
    -Olds made some good engines, I have several (no diesels, though.) But as far as high-performance goes, they just simply couldn't stack up to some of the other makes.

    First and foremost, the block is simply too thin for a four-bolt main cap. To help support the lower end, you have to use some manner of girdle, and the better ones are quite spendy.

    The aforementioned four bolts per cylinder doesn't help under high compression or boosted applications, the oil system isn't the best, etc. etc.

    Today, people yank the Olds out of the old musclecars and drop in an LS. You can get twice the power for half the effort and cost.

    (Not me, though- all my Oldses have Oldses. )

    Doc.

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    Ya gotta love PM....probably the only place on Earth you can find someone defending the GM diesel 350! lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    Ya gotta love PM....probably the only place on Earth you can find someone defending the GM diesel 350! lol
    Oh no, we are all aware what a POS it was. Just mix blue devil with the coolant, oil, fuel, and feed a lil to some vacuum lines, she should keep ticking and pissing down the road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocsMachine View Post
    -Olds made some good engines, I have several (no diesels, though.) But as far as high-performance goes, they just simply couldn't stack up to some of the other makes.

    First and foremost, the block is simply too thin for a four-bolt main cap. To help support the lower end, you have to use some manner of girdle, and the better ones are quite spendy.

    The aforementioned four bolts per cylinder doesn't help under high compression or boosted applications, the oil system isn't the best, etc. etc.

    Today, people yank the Olds out of the old musclecars and drop in an LS. You can get twice the power for half the effort and cost.

    (Not me, though- all my Oldses have Oldses. )

    Doc.
    you right about that . i never understood why any body back in the day would try to make the point with some of the motors they did [like the dirt track guy back in 78 that had to drive his amx javelin well he showed us and his pocket book to who was boss] . when it came to after market stuff the small block chevy had it all and the ls now your talking nice package

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    Quote Originally Posted by GregSY View Post
    Ya gotta love PM....probably the only place on Earth you can find someone defending the GM diesel 350! lol
    yup it was not gm's finest moment be nether is potus 46 but hey we will get past it it had had its share of problems one of the biggest was the nut behind the steering wheel trying to drive a diesel like it was a gas motor but when they did drive them like a diesel and they worked [and for the most part that was not often ] it did its job

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    Y'all doo realize of course that the 5.7 was a test for marketability?
    No-body else stuck their Richard out there....

    The 6.2 came out in '82.
    Was at least 2 more years before Ford actually had theirs in the sales lots.
    My G-Pa ordered a 6.9 when it was first released, and the truck came in MANY months later than expected.

    It wasn't his old 460, but it could pass a fuel stop...


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Y'all doo realize of course that the 5.7 was a test for marketability?
    No-body else stuck their Richard out there....

    The 6.2 came out in '82.
    Was at least 2 more years before Ford actually had theirs in the sales lots.
    My G-Pa ordered a 6.9 when it was first released, and the truck came in MANY months later than expected.

    It wasn't his old 460, but it could pass a fuel stop...


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox
    Test for marketability at the expense of the public, that motor is often cited for permanently damaging the reputation of diesels in passenger vehicles for years to come.

    Sometime The worst things are done with the best intentions.

    If they hadn’t stuck their neck out maybe someone else (with a real diesel engine) could of and we would of seen more come after

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    He probably saw a Junkers engine, either live in Germany/Europe, or read about them... There is some web sites about them...

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    All this talk about the GM Diesel reminds about one of my former lives...
    I was fresh out of high school, fresh off the farm...

    Some people were trying to develop a diagnostic tool, a diesel digital tachometer.
    Since there were no spark plugs, ignition, or reliable source of signal, and this was intended to be used on any diesel, even really large diesels.
    They invented a clamp on piezo gizmo that clamped onto an injector line.

    This was in the early 70's and building this out of a microprocessor was not considered an option.
    It would need an expensive CPU chip, a ROM chip, a counter chip, LED drivers, a RAM chip, etc...
    Just was not considered a possibility.
    This new CMOS stuff looked promising though.
    Problem was, you couldn't count how many pulses happened per second, or some such counting scheme...
    This had to go from around 100 RPM to 10,000 RPM.
    At 100 RPM, there was only 50 pulses per minute with a four stroke motor.
    By the time the tachometer counted to 100, the motor could have revved up, slowed down, and shut off...
    It was possible to measure the period between injections, very easily, and accurately.
    However, that number was the Inverse of the RPM.
    Remember, No microcomputer....
    They demanded it to give instant readout, and be Accurate to ONE RPM.

    All we had were counters, and latches.

    I invented a circuit that counted up a 12 or 16 bit counter, and measured the period. This period was latched and fed into a preload to a down counter.
    The down counter was running about 1,000 or 10,000 times faster.
    This formed a digital frequency multiplier.
    The output fed another counter circuit, with a timed gate, and that fed the LED displays for the instant readout RPM.
    All with new CMOS from Solid State Scientific, sold by a new upstart company called DigiKey.
    Their whole inventory was only a few pages long.

    Anyway, they said Thanks kid.....
    Took it to GM.
    GM could not believe it! They wanted to buy all their tools from at the time, Kent Moore instead.
    So there was some negotiating...
    Things were ramping up fast for the NEW diesels being developed.

    Anyway, these guys built it, sold it, and in a few years built a microprocessor version of it.
    They went on to become multi millionaires. Starting a large electronics design/manufacturing company.

    Not exactly sure about what I learned from that.
    But that's my connection to the GM diesel story.

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