Insert tooling for Smart Brown 1024

beckerkumm · Jan 31, 2021

After what seems like a million years, I have the 1024 running. I have two tool posts, a multifix A and an Algra Rapidue which is a Dickson clone. There were a bunch of holders for the Algra but most looked dickson as the flange on the adjuster was too thick. I surface ground them and intend to use them first as I need the algra to make a bolt for the Multifix. Tooling that cam e with the lathe are pictured below but no extra inserts. I'm new to most of this so I would like to know which of these is useful and worth buying inserts for. I'm learning about the nomenaclature ( reading threads here )but don't want to buy a bunch of useless stuff. I have rooms of useless stuff all ready. The 3/4" will work on either post.

Any advice is appreciated. Dave

thermite · Feb 1, 2021

beckerkumm said:
After what seems like a million years, I have the 1024 running. I have two tool posts, a multifix A and an Algra Rapidue which is a Dickson clone. There were a bunch of holders for the Algra but most looked dickson as the flange on the adjuster was too thick. I surface ground them and intend to use them first as I need the algra to make a bolt for the Multifix. Tooling that cam e with the lathe are pictured below but no extra inserts. I'm new to most of this so I would like to know which of these is useful and worth buying inserts for. I'm learning about the nomenaclature ( reading threads here )but don't want to buy a bunch of useless stuff. I have rooms of useless stuff all ready. The 3/4" will work on either post.View attachment 312341 View attachment 312342 View attachment 312343 Any advice is appreciated. Dave

Ermmm.. Carbides are magically diverse and capable technology, many long years, already. Fast-moving as to upgrades, too.

Those pushing CNC spindles balls to the walls to earn a few cents each PART need to be as up-to-date as possible lest some OTHER guy pushing a CNC spindle beats their price by two cents.

Good on 'em.

A(ny) hobbyist hasn't got the time, the budget, nor the mass of same-same alloy and same-shape parts to match that "optimization", even if he/we had the wish to do. Our "optimal" can vary from ONE job to the next, not even involve TWO of a thing.

Use what is common, cheap, and generally well-spoken of, all-around use. It WILL be obsolete by bleeding-edge metrics. And also JF get the job DONE more often that not.

Lazy, Iyam.

I've got more than a lifetime supply of HSS/Cobalt and Stellites put by, virgin blanks to some earlier Pilgrim's interesting grind, usable, touch-up-able, or reshaped altogether "my way".

That's all I really need. No further out-of-pocket spend required. Ever again.

"YMMV"

It is SUPPOSED to do.

Same as boats and camels.

Only ripe Durian fruit and fresh cat s**t are fungible goods.
Best to avoid BOTH, if you were not already aware!

Clobbered QCTP holders might also stinketh?

None of my concern. 4-Ways didn't cease working cheaply any more than the Bronze age ended for lack of Bronze nor the stone age for lack of stone.

henrya · Feb 1, 2021

I would not waste money on inserts for those tools. For a lathe the size and power of your Smart & Brown I’d go with 1/2” shank tools with positive rake inserts. I really like the 80* diamond shapes like CPMT in SCLP holders. Same insert for turning and boring.

Here is an insert chart to help you figure out what's what:
Insert Designation Chart - provides ANSI and ISO designation code definitions for carbide insert shapes, relief angles, tolerances, chipbreaker codes, hole types, size values, thickness values, radius values, wiper lead angle, wiper clearance angle,

Holder:

SCLPL083V

Order left and right handed.

Boring tool holder:

FOR CPGT/CPMT INSERTS

Those three tools will do most turning and boring to get you started. Pay attention when ordering and one insert shape does it all. The advantage is you only have to buy and stock one insert. The KC730 is a good all purpose insert, IME.

beckerkumm · Feb 1, 2021

henrya said:
I would not waste money on inserts for those tools. For a lathe the size and power of your Smart & Brown I’d go with 1/2” shank tools with positive rake inserts. I really like the 80* diamond shapes like CPMT in SCLP holders. Same insert for turning and boring.

Here is an insert chart to help you figure out what's what:
Insert Designation Chart - provides ANSI and ISO designation code definitions for carbide insert shapes, relief angles, tolerances, chipbreaker codes, hole types, size values, thickness values, radius values, wiper lead angle, wiper clearance angle,

Holder:

SCLPL083V

Order left and right handed.

Boring tool holder:

FOR CPGT/CPMT INSERTS

Those three tools will do most turning and boring to get you started. Pay attention when ordering and one insert shape does it all. The advantage is you only have to buy and stock one insert. The KC730 is a good all purpose insert, IME.

Thank you for the specific recommendations. Helps a lot to get me started. I've been rehabbing old woodworking machines for years and have needed parts made. I decided to rehab some metal machines and learn to use them, at least for simple stuff. I've been using my mill for some time now but just starting on lathe work. After the 1024 is ready, I will finish a Monarch 60/61 16x54.

Are there reasons other than cost that 1/2" tooling is better for the 1024 than 3/4" ? The holder sits down farther ( unless you shim up the 1/2" ) on the post which I would think would be good. Much of the tooling in the pictures came with the Monarch. Machines don't need to share tooling and my guess is they will generally stay with the holder. Is the smaller easier to deal with for smaller diameter stuff? I'm just trying to learn the good and bad of the smaller vs larger size. Dave

shapeaholic · Feb 1, 2021

I have some 1/2 tooling that I bought a long time ago from a home shop kinda guy from Bellingham WA.
uses 3/8 size tnmg ( I think) inserts.
I use that with the original 4 sided tool block that came on my S&B 1024.

If I was keeping the lathe I would get a Mulifix and 1/2 or 5/8 shank tools I think anything bigger would start to get awkward.
Remember this is a "precision" lathe, not a "hog off BIG chips" machine like a Monarch.

Think 10EE size tools

Just my $0.02
Peter

billmac · Feb 1, 2021

I suggest that you check what size of tooling you can get on centre with your Algra toolpost. I have an original Dickson toolpost on my 1024 and that limits the size of the toolholders that can be set on centre. When you know what the dimensions of your toolholder need to be go, to a good tool supply company and check what is available. You may find, as I have that there is a limited selection of tooling that you can use. Of course you don't have to use a Dickson style toolpost, in which case the restriction will be gone, but it is hard to lose the convenience.

The 1024 is a very rigid heavy lathe with a superb spindle. However it is a toolrom lathe designed for precision work, not taking massive cuts with negative rake tooling. If you attempt this you will probably find the the belts will slip under the load. I would stick to simple positive rake inserts, as others have advised.

beckerkumm · Feb 1, 2021

Thanks, my Algra is a 2 and the holders are T2, S2 which I would guess is similar to yours. The Multifix is an A. Holders for both types have openings a little greater than 20mm. I will begin using the Algra as I need it to modify the post on the compound if I want to change to the multifix. Dave

JohnEvans · Feb 1, 2021

I bought this set off Ebay and have been very pleased with it and my set was shipped from Cal. Hard to beat the price for 4 holders and 10 inserts. Bought a 10 pack of inserts for less than $10 off Alibaba all so . Using these in a Multifix A system.
4pcs 12mm Lathe Turning Tool Holder Boring Bar + 10 DCMT0702 Carbide Inserts Set | eBay

henrya · Feb 1, 2021

I think 1/2” holders are about right for the size work you will do on that machine and are enough for the horsepower you have. For my little 10x24 I have maybe 5 or 6 tools that use the same size CPMT inserts. They get the most work by far. Right and left turning and several boring bars of different diameters and left and right - but all the smaller 3/8 inscribed insert size. I have lots more tooling including tiny boring and threading tools, big boring bars, profiling inserts, form tools and so on. The three I suggested above would be the last ones I could do without.

beckerkumm · Feb 1, 2021

Thanks. That will get me started and i can learn and build from there. The S and B has been converted to a vfd and a 5 hp TENV motor that outperforms the original three speed set up. I can run at less than 1 hz and get full torque so the little lathe has some go power. A parting tool is next on the list.
There are also three point radius on the inserts, .008,.016,.031. Is there a preference for which ?
Dave

billmac · Feb 2, 2021

If you had a three speed motor then you must have a mk1 1024. That means that the drive goes through a Matrix gearbox to the spindle. I would take care not to put excessive torque through the gearbox which was sized for the original 3 speed motor's output, which you will easily exceed with your current setup. As I suggested above, the lathe is not intended for really heavy cuts.

With respect to your Algra toolpost, it is not the size of the opening (20mm) that matters, it is the size of tool that you can adjust to get the tip on centre. This is smaller than you might expect, so my suggestion to check the actual geometry was made to avoid wasting money on toolholders that will not fit without modification.

henrya · Feb 2, 2021

beckerkumm said:
Thanks. That will get me started and i can learn and build from there. The S and B has been converted to a vfd and a 5 hp TENV motor that outperforms the original three speed set up. I can run at less than 1 hz and get full torque so the little lathe has some go power. A parting tool is next on the list.
There are also three point radius on the inserts, .008,.016,.031. Is there a preference for which ?
DaveView attachment 312443

.016 is mostly what I use. Sharp enough and makes a nice filet/radius when you need it to. I’d buy ten and go from there.

CPMT2151LF KC730

Good for general purpose smallish work and finishing larger things.

You’re not likely to do much work on a 10x24 that you can’t hold in one hand, but for those times you do need to remove a lot of metal look for how to grind a hss tool for the purpose. Or if you find yourself doing that a lot, buy more insert tooling for that work.

The lathe itself is the cheapest part. Then you start the real spending on tooling.

beckerkumm · Feb 2, 2021

billmac said:
If you had a three speed motor then you must have a mk1 1024. That means that the drive goes through a Matrix gearbox to the spindle. I would take care not to put excessive torque through the gearbox which was sized for the original 3 speed motor's output, which you will easily exceed with your current setup. As I suggested above, the lathe is not intended for really heavy cuts.

With respect to your Algra toolpost, it is not the size of the opening (20mm) that matters, it is the size of tool that you can adjust to get the tip on centre. This is smaller than you might expect, so my suggestion to check the actual geometry was made to avoid wasting money on toolholders that will not fit without modification.

The Matrix is actually overkill for the lathe but I agree that there is no point to using the additional torque. A similar 3 hp motor would have been fine. I just got a deal on the larger. The TENV was overkill too with the 3.6-1 clutch reduction and 8-1 back gear but speed range is pretty wide, even without the back gear. Dave

PS. I checked my matrix info and the ZC 25 used on the 1024 has a rating of 28.9 ft lbs torque, roughly double what my motor can put out - I still agree that the lathe isn't meant for testing the capacity of the matrix.

beckerkumm · Feb 2, 2021

henrya said:
.016 is mostly what I use. Sharp enough and makes a nice filet/radius when you need it to. I’d buy ten and go from there.

CPMT2151LF KC730

Good for general purpose smallish work and finishing larger things.

You’re not likely to do much work on a 10x24 that you can’t hold in one hand, but for those times you do need to remove a lot of metal look for how to grind a hss tool for the purpose. Or if you find yourself doing that a lot, buy more insert tooling for that work.

The lathe itself is the cheapest part. Then you start the real spending on tooling.

The insert referenced is a 1/4" vs the 3/8" talked about earlier. CPMT 3251 LF is the one that fits the other tooling. Dave

richard newman · Feb 2, 2021

Dave, you might want to talk to Curtis (exkenna on PM). He set me up with a toolholder with CCMT inserts for my old Leblond lathe. Works great for me, with the added benefit that the highly polished inserts for aluminum cut really well on wood also.

Lathe inserts .com

beckerkumm · Feb 2, 2021

How does the difference in CP and CM ( 11 vs 7 degree angle ) come into play? Finish, material, etc ? Are there discernible differences in quality among the manufacturers ( excluding the obvious cheap stuff ). Dave

cyanidekid · Feb 2, 2021

beckerkumm said:
Thanks. That will get me started and i can learn and build from there. The S and B has been converted to a vfd and a 5 hp TENV motor that outperforms the original I can run at less than 1 hz and get full torque so the little lathe has some go power.

less than 1 hz really?

beckerkumm · Feb 2, 2021

cyanidekid said:
less than 1 hz really?

Vector duty motors are pretty sweet. The torque will actually go to near zero hz. Used in hoist applications as well. Most motors have a 20-1 range so 3 hz is minimum. vector duty is 1000-1 so .06 hz technically. no HP of course. Dave

billmac · Feb 2, 2021

beckerkumm said:
PS. I checked my matrix info and the ZC 25 used on the 1024 has a rating of 28.9 ft lbs torque, roughly double what my motor can put out - I still agree that the lathe isn't meant for testing the capacity of the matrix.

The clutches are the part that I would have some concern about. They do need careful adjustment to operate properly and there have been a number of postings about this. With the Matrix gearbox you can change ratios on the fly. If you don't plan to do this then I would be less concerned.

Have you implemented the original 3 motor speeds through the VFD? That is what I did with my 1024, as well as having the ability to switch to a continuously variable speed control. It is nice to have the 3 speeds properly calibrated to the original control plate, and not too difficult to get the VFD to do this. If you have a continuously variable control, then a spindle tachometer is very useful. I also added a meter to show the actual motor current being drawn. This is really not required but interesting to keep an eye on cutting conditions.

beckerkumm · Feb 2, 2021

Bill, I've been waiting for the Tachulator guy to start selling again but if you have a recommendation, I'm happy to listen. I'm still rewiring the vfd. It is set up temporarily with just the remote keyboard and pot. It will have jog, two stage braking, and a proximity stop for threading ( as I'm not very good ). I have external resistors and hope to incorporate a hz and amp meter as I like to know that info when running. For now, I can do the rough math in my head or use my handheld tach. The original speeds didn't match the plate and I think it is because of the 60hz as they were about 20% high.

I have had the Matrix apart a hundred times. Found some replacement parts in UK and was able to put it back complete. It makes a little noise but the bearings a good and the oiler pumps well now. I remade the bronze gluts as they were so screwed up the clutch didn't hold. There is a fine line in adjusting the wet plates. The machine was not correct for a long time. the plates were a little loose and the owner tried to compensate by forcing the gluts against the ring until they worn down too far to be useful. Dave

PS sorry to the others who are trying to help me with tooling. I appreciate and need the help.

Insert tooling for Smart Brown 1024

Hot Rolled

Diamond

Titanium

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Stainless

Stainless

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Titanium

Titanium

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Stainless

Titanium

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Hot Rolled

Titanium

Hot Rolled

Titanium

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Stainless

Hot Rolled

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