Ist Mill and Lathe Purchase-Large Budget

First of all. Hi. I have been a long time lurker. I will give you some pretty good background and would love some help.

I want to purchase a Mill and a Lathe. I have a 40-60K budget.

I grew up in a house where my dad literally couldn't fix anything. We owned a crescent wrench, pliers, a hammer and two screwdrivers. I started fixing things when I bought my first dirt bike at age 10 and realized that working on something with just a crescent wrench and a hammer sucks. From that point on I have always felt it was worth it to purchase the best tool I could afford. I also have been completely self taught in each area I have worked to learn. What I do is I pick a skill and work on it exclusively for four years so that I can obtain some level of competence. My last two cycles were 4 years of welding and fabrication and 4 years of woodworking. I know this is a lot of money to spend for a hobbyist who doesn't do this for a living but lots of guys spend money on boats, Harleys or whatever. I choose to spend my money on tools and I have been saving for a few years to purchase these and want to do it once and get it right.

I have wanted to learn lathe and milling operations for over a decade and now I am going to dive in. The local community college will not allow me to attend classes there unless I plan on working full time in the field, which I am not. This means that I am going to have to learn from whatever other sources I can.

I do gunsmithing so am interested in those types of operations but in addition to that I build a lot of other items.

I am 42 years old and figure that whatever machines I buy I am going to own for a long time and I don't want to have to upgrade because I cheaped out up front. I have a pretty good size space dedicated to the machines in my shop (space for the machines is 20X20 and that space can be filled entirely by machines. I have other space for storage, materials etc) I can outfit my shop with 3 Phase if needed.

I want machines that I am likely to be able to continue to find parts etc for them over the next 30 years.

At first I was looking at Knee Mills with a DRO but there are some items that I would like to create several of and it seems that CNC capability would give me a far more capable machine and to not get it up front would make me continually wish I had.

I have been looking at getting an ACER 3VK with Accu-Rite G2 Millpwr and an ACER 1760G Non-CNC Lathe. I have heard some people say these machines are incredible and others say they are not built as well as they should be or have finishing issues. In these price ranges ($35K and $20K) should I be looking at different machines? Is a kneemill style with CNC the right direction to go? (I would like to be able to run it manually if needed)

Any suggestions on an equipment dealer to talk to?

Thanks for your help on this, I appreciate it.

Your budget is close to being able to get a Haas TM-1 and a TL-1 brand new. You'd realistically need more like $75K for moderately optioned machines before much tooling, and you need Fusion 360, but that would be home shop capability to die for. Who has such a home shop? YouTube mill turn star Peter Stanton of Edge Precision does, when he's not at work running his Integrex. If you could save more for a bit longer, spend a bit of money now, like $10K on decent used manual machines which you could learn on, then sell on or keep as you moved into CNC. Plus you need to get a little horizontal band saw and such things. Everyone here is suspicious of converted CNC knee mill machines and while the Acer lathe is probably great, it's manual. Our TL-1 is just awesome for one offs and general lathe work and the conversational programming functionality works really well (much better than the mill conversational, where CAM is better). We actually used to have a TM-2 who's main failing was being a 2007 so pre-enclosure, so you couldn't crank the RPMs. Otherwise it did critical prototyping that helped start several companies which have raised several tens of millions of dollars and now we have a VM-3.

Both these machines can run on single phase.
TL-1 | Toolroom Lathes | 8" Chuck | 10" Chuck | Lathes – Haas CNC Machines
TM-1 | 40-Taper Mill | Toolroom Mills | Vertical Mills – Haas CNC Machines

danmcph said:

The local community college will not allow me to attend classes there unless I plan on working full time in the field, which I am not.

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THAT.. is almost certainly because they are funded by a government program meant to generate worker-bee folk and would lose the funds, otherwise.

There is PROBABLY a way around it. You are an ADULT. And a "customer". The customer calls the shots annnnd knows how to negotiate things a teeny-bopper might not know.

Go and have a word with whomever has the Dean of Admissions function.

What you want is to find out if you can take the course "for Audit".

Same fee. Same course. You just won't get Collitch credits.

BFD.

But your not being a job-seeker should not go against their grant, rules, either.

Another route is to see if faculty are permitted to do tutoring for those who need extra attention.

One or both could solve your problem. Check it out.

It's one of the tools I've used to take any course I wanted, anywhere I wanted, post-grad level, usually.

No "prerequisites" apply, so "Audit" was more flexible, given I never bothered with any so-called "core curriculum" nor under-grad degree where I didn't want to waste time wasting time.

The MD or Chairman was OK with my never having bothered with a formal degree. It was better to HIRE any degree the tasking needed.

Most especially AS MD or Chairman, when I was not eligible for promotion ANYWAY!

Having done just what you are starting over the past 4 years (e.g. start from scratch, not a professional shop,etc) I will say that $60K is NOT a big budget, and 400 sf of space is a VERY small space for machining. Soooo, I think your biggest issue will be space. You will need to make all sorts of compromises and limit the number of machines you purchase. While many might say that you should start with a manual mill and lathe, I think given your space constraints I would recommend you start with a CNC mill that will fit in your space. One BIG question is how high is your ceiling and how big a door do you have....I'm presuming this might be your garage? If so, how tall is your garage door opening? This will dictate a lot of decisions on what machines you can fit in there. You'll also need to consider electrical (3 phase is a requirement, but you can get there with a phase converter) and you'll need an air compressor. You'll also want to consider the trade-offs with buying new versus buying used. If you are very careful and diligent you can find excellent used machines that normally would be beyond your budget. If you go new, you will need quite a bit better funding than $60K.

Here are the machines I would recommend:
- phase converter if you don't already have 3-phase power
- air compressor
- pedestal grinder
- the most capable CNC mill you can fit in your space
- for the lathe, I would recommend a manual lathe, maybe a fine tool room lathe such as a Hardinge
- then you'll need to set aside a bunch of money for tooling and cutters
- you'll also need a variety of metrology tools (micrometers, surface plate, gages, etc)
- STORAGE: you'll run out of space quickly, so you need to plan your storage for maximal impact
- CAD/CAM software and computer to run it

There are many on this forum that can recommend used CNC mills for your budget that will fit your space. If you are going new (and you have a bigger budget) there are some very nice small machines that would fit nicely in your space (Brother Speedio comes to mind).

After having a shop for several years I eventually picked up a horizontal band saw for cutting stock to length. Ever since I've wondered how I ever got along without it and why didn't I buy that first.

adh2000 said:

After having a shop for several years I eventually picked up a horizontal band saw for cutting stock to length. Ever since I've wondered how I ever got along without it and why didn't I buy that first.

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Well.... he said a fab & welding background - then 4 years at woodworking - were recent "4 year" episodes.. so... I figure sawing, drilling, grinding are familiar.

CNC is "the way to go" for any bizness or career goal, but...

Age 42 arredy, and it will NOT beome an occupation?

Could skew the plan?

adh2000 said:

After having a shop for several years I eventually picked up a horizontal band saw for cutting stock to length. Ever since I've wondered how I ever got along without it and why didn't I buy that first.

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Good point, totally agree, band saw is required right up front. For small space, the Roll-In Roll-In Saw | Vertical Band Saws is perfect.

Thanks for the help guys.

I'm fine on the other items mentioned so if we keep the topic to the machines themselves it would be great. The other details I have a good handle on already. Here is some info to fill you in.

I have an Ellis DP, Band Saw, Belt Sander. My shop has 16 foot ceilings and is 64'X36'. This shop does have to house my welding and woodworking but I do have space to utilize. I have another 60'X36' steel building for storage. I have been doing gunsmithing for a long time so I have Micrometers etc.

Your requirement to possess these machines for a long time rules out CNC. Their life span is well under 20 years, not because they wear out mechanically beyond repair, but because the controls can no longer be serviced because of lack of support both parts and knowledge. This is as opposed to a 100 year life span of manual machines. The real driver for CNC is volume. If you are not doing production, speed is not a concern. As a hobbyist, you need to bias your equipment towards capability and space conservation. You cannot afford to own any machine that is not fully optioned with every bell and whistle available, because unlike a pro shop, you will not have the space for multiple machines. You should be looking for a 80% solution and be prepared to outsource occasionally. It is much less expensive. It is also a fact that machine tooling costs will match or very likely exceed the cost of the machine, especially over time. In that light, make certain the spindle type of the machines you choose are very common with multiple sources of tools and accessories. This is very important.

You state you have a band saw, if it is for wood, it is useless for metal........get a real saw. You will need both a horizontal saw for stock and a vertical for utility. You need to think about cutting tools. Carbide is great for production, but too expensive over time for a hobbyist. You will be using a lot of HSS, so you will need a way to sharpen them and to create form tools. This requires a piece of your budget as well.

I will recommend a lathe with 13 to 16 inch swing and 40" between centers with a D1-4 or D1-6 spindle and a TA, as it will rarely be available separately. Your vertical mill should be a 40 taper or R8 for commonality. It should have power feed and rapids in all 3 axis's and a DRO. You should consider a horizontal mill as well, especially if you want to make gears.

Consider your initial purchase just a modest beginning, there is no end. This hobby is worse than a drug habit. I'm embarrassed to tell you how much I have spent over the years, but it exceeds your budget by more than the power of 10. Be prepared!!!

CNC machines make partSSSSS, manual machines make A part. Unless you plan to make partSSSSS, or have an immediate need for intricate profiling, I would recommend staying with manual machines.
My reading of your intent, gunsmithing and a love of working on/fixing things only solidifies that recommendation. I could be wrong, but my interpretation is that you’ll get far more satisfaction from cranking wheels by hand than by pressing a button.
I’m a manual guy... and a far better lathe hand than a mill hand. That said, even in the most automated shops I’ve worked in, I’ve never been “job-scared”. One-off and repair work is typically faster done on manual machines. Boss’ friend drops off a set of motorcycle triple clamps he needs bored to fit larger fork tubes? I’ll be cleaning up chips before the CNC programmer has his tool-path written. Turning down a shaft? Again, I’m indicated and CUTTING before the CNC operator has picked out which set of soft-jaws he wants to modify.

Now... WHICH manual machine to consider? I haven’t a clue. Personally, I’d be looking for something older and American-made, either babied or rebuilt. You mentioned Acer, Kent and Sharp also seem to be held in good regard, as far as new machines go. Just remember this: any “bare” machine is as worthless as a fart in a diving mask. Tooling is what gets the work done. Don’t max out your budget on the bare tool... from the $60k you’re willing to spend I would suggest holding back AT LEAST $10k for tooling. It adds up quick. For a mill you’ll need collets, either a vice or t-slot clamps AND end mills, just to start. Shortly after you’ll want more... a rotary table or indexing head, sine-plates, a face-mill, a boring head. It keeps adding up. For a lathe you’ll need at barest minimum some HSS blanks, as well as a means to prep them. You’ll want a quick change tool post before long. You’ll need centers and drill chucks for the tail stock. Soon enough you’ll want a dedicated toolbox to keep it all in. Machining is a snowball on Everest.




Be safe and stay healthy




Jeremy

I think Acer is good enough. You may need a drill press, surface plate, bench vise, surface grinder, bench grinder, plus accessaries. Saw would be handy but Alro Steel will cut your one-ups. Perhaps a cold saw would take less space.
ACER 17" x 60" Dynamic Lathe w/ Special Lathe Package - 1760GDP - Penn Tool Co., Inc

Chevalier Manual Surface Grinder 6" x 18" - FSG-618M - Penn Tool Co., Inc

Likely you could man the shop with like-new machines for half price, but if price is no object new is fine..

steve-l said:

Your requirement to possess these machines for a long time rules out CNC. Their life span is well under 20 years, not because they wear out mechanically beyond repair, but because the controls can no longer be serviced because of lack of support both parts and knowledge. This is as opposed to a 100 year life span of manual machines. The real driver for CNC is volume. If you are not doing production, speed is not a concern. As a hobbyist, you need to bias your equipment towards capability and space conservation. You cannot afford to own any machine that is not fully optioned with every bell and whistle available, because unlike a pro shop, you will not have the space for multiple machines. You should be looking for a 80% solution and be prepared to outsource occasionally. It is much less expensive. It is also a fact that machine tooling costs will match or very likely exceed the cost of the machine, especially over time. In that light, make certain the spindle type of the machines you choose are very common with multiple sources of tools and accessories. This is very important.

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Nonsense.

Lifespan of a CNC machine is determined by the builder (how long they want to support it) and the end user (how badly they want to keep it running). If you don't do your due diligence and buy a machine from an MTB that has a history of not supporting their machines over time (Haas, Mazak), then that's on you. Plenty on this forum running CNC machines that are older than 20 years, and professionally, not as a hobby. While most of our machines are under 10 years old, our oldest machining centre will be 30 next year. It takes a little effort to keep it running, but it can't be that bad because it's still here and I could replace it tomorrow for little money if I wanted to.

Also volume is not the primary driver for CNC. It may be for some specific applications, but for most users the primary driver for CNC is to expand the envelope of what can be machined practically.

For someone getting into this as a hobby in this day and age I really couldn't recommend to buy a manual mill. Just too limiting in capability. But I would advocate for extreme caution when choosing which specific machine to buy! There are some good options for limited budgets, and there are some really, really bad options too. Ask here first.

I may catch some flack from the pros on this but if the college is not willing to help you out there are lots of educational machining channels on youtube that you should check out. For beginner manual stuff mrpete222 (tubalcain) is a great place to start. There are others that specialize in CNC if that is your thing.

For hobby/farm/home use the manual machines can get you pretty far. I am a fan of old American iron but if you have a need to do any metric threading you may hit limitations.

My horizontal band saw is designed for metal. My vertical bandsaw is as well. I have a lot of ways to cut metal at this point. Just assume that anything needed to run a welding shop other than an Ironworker, I already have that base covered.

HAAS has a year end sale right now and additionally the local college is listed as one of their training centers and demo places.

How would a HAAS TM2P for a mill and a TL2 Lathe be? Those are within my budget. Is it true that HAAS has a history of not supporting older CNC machines? Would I be better off getting a machine that runs the ACCURITE programing for long term support?

Also, I am conflicted on whether to get a CNC right off or get a good Manual with DRO and then down the road if I want CNC, sell the Manual once I have some experience under my belt. If I got something that used a common tooling I could use the tooling for the future CNC purchase if I don't do it now. Of course, then I start thinking maybe an ACER with CNC capability but the option to run it manually may be my best bet.

Sorry for all the questions guys. I really really appreciate the help.

I'll rock the boat and say that a CNC knee mill would be great for a home hobby shop. I started my business with a CNC knee mill and once upgraded to VMCs, I brought the mill home. It's perfect. With good conversational control I can do all the random home / farm / whatever stuff on the control without touching the computer. For random drilling I can go into MDI mode and type X1.25Y0 and bam I am there. My machine is from 2006 and has a DOS PC based control. I replaced a failed hard drive with a CF card. That's been sum total of control maintenance. It's some servo drives and a VFD, so it would be quite easy to retrofit in a new PC control if needed. I see no reason why it can't go for many many years.

I would consider another direction. I started with woodworking as a hobby, found I preferred old machines to new, for most not all. Got into metalworking to help make parts for the old machines and found it is pretty fun. You can find good old stuff for way less to start. 15-20K will get you into a decent mill, lathe, grinder and saw with money left over for tooling. A used doall bandsaw will last you forever and be better than new. Surface grinders in decent shape are pretty easy to find. Mills and lathes are a little harder but good stuff is available.

Take the other 40K and save it until you learn what you like and what you need. When you are better informed, you will get most of your money back unless you buy stupid and even then you are only out the cost of education. After a few years you can upgrade and keep watching for deals since you have extra money available to strike when the iron is hot. Sometimes you need to act fast but the benefits are great.

If you buy expensive new and find out you chose wrong, you will be lucky to get half back on a 50K investment. I'd go slow, learn about the machines and how they work, develop some skills and watch for really good stuff that you know you will use. Dave

kb0thn said:

I'll rock the boat and say that a CNC knee mill would be great for a home hobby shop. I started my business with a CNC knee mill and once upgraded to VMCs, I brought the mill home. It's perfect. With good conversational control I can do all the random home / farm / whatever stuff on the control without touching the computer. For random drilling I can go into MDI mode and type X1.25Y0 and bam I am there. My machine is from 2006 and has a DOS PC based control. I replaced a failed hard drive with a CF card. That's been sum total of control maintenance. It's some servo drives and a VFD, so it would be quite easy to retrofit in a new PC control if needed. I see no reason why it can't go for many many years.

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This sounds like a good solution. When I look at the cost of an ACER knee mill with CNC it costs the same as the HAAS. Would I be better off going the route of the ACER (or similar) because of the ability to control it as you suggest and give up the additional features the HAAS offers in that price range?

beckerkumm said:

15-20K will get you into a decent mill, lathe, grinder and saw with money left over for tooling. A used doall bandsaw will last you forever and be better than new. Surface grinders in decent shape are pretty easy to find. Mills and lathes are a little harder but good stuff is available.

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I originally started going this route but I live in a machinery desert (Idaho) and I have no idea how to tell if a used machine is in good shape or not. I also will have to freight whatever I purchase to ID so I can't inspect it first. I wish there was a source for used machinery that someone could point me to where I could be assured that the guy I speak to will shoot 100% straight with me on the machine with whatever warts it has before purchasing it remotely

I guess I am just too old school. I would look into a manual Victor or Hwacheon 16x40, lathe, with Dro, and a good Bridgeport rebuilt or clone (Acer, Sharp). w/Dro. Use any left over for tooling or ....I haven't priced these lathes lately so it might out of your range. I love my old American stuff, but had to rebuild all of it. Maybe when I retire, I'll have the time to learn CAD, and maybe CNC, but it I just don't have a pressing need for it.

There was a Rivett and K and T in Idaho for sale this past year and freight is a necessity with new or used. Put 2500 of your money into a used electric pallet jack, manual jack, etc and keep looking. I understand the fear of used but one way to accumulate wealth is to learn and make small mistakes first. My friends with new have problems too so some knowledge of machinery is needed either way. Your decision of course but keep the hobby amount appropriate to the investment account. Dave