Jacobs 58B headstock chuck - adapter- worth the bother?

I got the chuck as part of a package deal when a got a drill press. The quality is very high and the condition of the jaws looks very good. For my lathe I'd need an adapter to go from 1 1/2" - 8 tpi to 1" - 8 tpi. There's an adapter on Ebay at a reasonable price but I don't know if it's worth the bother. Has anyone done this and wound up with a runout of .001" or less? Does anyone know of a source for a quality adapter?

You will be lucky if you can hold .003" TIR with that chuck new. It won't repeat over time, will get worse. Need to look at other work holding devices for holding .001" TIR. The threaded adapter, I would think would be hit and miss on less than .005" TIR. I have the same one I used on my 9" SBL over 45 years ago. After fighting with it, moved on to better workholding means. Just my two cents worth. Ken

Well thanks for your two cents.https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/images/smilies/smile.gif I hoped that I had fluked my way into a faster way to set up and turn small items with some accuracy. With an Albrecht keyless drill chuck MT2 shank set directly into the lathe headstock, and with a drill rod for testing, I register no runout on an indicator with .001" tolerance. This is what I was trying to repeat so I could leave the Albrecht in the drill press. After looking at many lathe chucks as an alternative to the time consuming 4 jaw independent chuck, it seems that the Bison Tru-Set self centering scroll chuck is on target, and correspondingly expensive. If there's some other direction I should consider, I'd appreciate two more cents.

There is no free lunch in this world. If you want a lathe, be prepared to tool it.You cannot successfully cheat. You will only waste money.

The headstock chucks are very desirable and tend to sell for a good buck. That said, they're not that great. OK for some fast and rough work, but nothing of high precision. I've got one for my Logan and use it every now and then, but it's not what you grab when what you really need is a 4-jaw or a decent 3-jaw. Or a collet.

1dogandnoexes said:

Well thanks for your two cents.https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/images/smilies/smile.gif I hoped that I had fluked my way into a faster way to set up and turn small items with some accuracy. With an Albrecht keyless drill chuck MT2 shank set directly into the lathe headstock, and with a drill rod for testing, I register no runout on an indicator with .001" tolerance. This is what I was trying to repeat so I could leave the Albrecht in the drill press. After looking at many lathe chucks as an alternative to the time consuming 4 jaw independent chuck, it seems that the Bison Tru-Set self centering scroll chuck is on target, and correspondingly expensive. If there's some other direction I should consider, I'd appreciate two more cents.

Click to expand...

collets.

an Albrect is a bit weak for lathe work holding, and if you practice a 4 jaw shouldn't take very long to adjust. for any sort of volume, you do want collets tho. I think the 58B was pretty common in small motor shops when turning down commutators on small bench lathes. it was relatively cheap very easy to use, especially for someone not trained as a machinist, and it's accuracy was "good 'nuff"

Jacobs made a 55B headstock chuck with 1"-8 thread mount. One in nice condition might be more accurate than a 58B with an adapter.

I had a 58B chuck for years, but almost never used it and let it go with the old lathe when I bought a better lathe with a bigger spindle.

Albrecht chucks will lock onto the work and become almost impossible to get loose if too much torque is applied, like when cutting large coarse threads. I have never used one in a lathe headstock.

Larry

1dogandnoexes said:

Well thanks for your two cents.https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/images/smilies/smile.gif I hoped that I had fluked my way into a faster way to set up and turn small items with some accuracy. With an Albrecht keyless drill chuck MT2 shank set directly into the lathe headstock, and with a drill rod for testing, I register no runout on an indicator with .001" tolerance. This is what I was trying to repeat so I could leave the Albrecht in the drill press. After looking at many lathe chucks as an alternative to the time consuming 4 jaw independent chuck, it seems that the Bison Tru-Set self centering scroll chuck is on target, and correspondingly expensive. If there's some other direction I should consider, I'd appreciate two more cents.

Click to expand...

Similar experience to 4GSR on a smaller one for 1"-10 threaded spindle back around 1970. I went-over to a Jacobs on #2 MT arse-end and got FAR better results, TIR-wise, plus faster swap!

Only value was ability to pass longer rod. It wasn't even on the same planet as collet accuracy, but at the time, neither was my budget for collets!

Surely fixed that part, since!

Drillpressen aren't really picky.

Your Albrecht works that good on the lathe, just keep it so assigned and buy the DP a less expensive replacement.

Not sure if it suits your needs, but I have ER-40 and ER-20 goods for dam' near EVERY spindle .. and TS ...under-roof. And exactly ONE set of collets, each.
I have, and nearly always USE.. some OTHER toolholder first. The ER are sorta like emergency rations just in case nothing else faster works for me.

2CW .....and mebbe a dozen collet systems?

Oh.. pleased to not PERMIT 3-J scroll chucks under my roof.

But IF I did?

I'd go for a Czech-made ToS Svitavy as better value-for-money than a present-day Bison. My OLD Bison (4-J, of course) is lovely. New ones? Mebbe not so much?

Thanks for everyone's input; I've learned without having to frustrate myself or pay for stuff that goes up on the shelves. Here's what I take away.

1. A headstock chuck is NOT a precision device.
2. Steve's point about tooling costs are well taken. As I continue to learn and tool up this lathe, at some point the tooling cost will outstrip the cost of the lathe. A Bison chuck will get me well past that point in a single purchase.
3. Using a four jaw independent chuck is still one of the best approaches for precision work.
4. Collets are a good alternative for a quick setup.

So for economy's sake, and since I am trying to hold small items typically 3/4" dia or less, and less than a few inches long, I'll continue turning center to center until I'm set up with collets.

Before spending money on collets, am I dreaming that using collets to hold true stock is as accurate as holding with a 4 jaw chuck? is there any meaningful difference in the quality of one collet vs. another? Should I expect to be able to find them in 1/64" increments? Aren't collets safer than using a lathe dog or chucks? How would I even catch anything on a collet? Also, it would seem to me that collets would be the preferred holder for anything finished at higher speeds since there can't be any eccentric loads.

1dogandnoexes said:

Thanks for everyone's input; I've learned without having to frustrate myself or pay for stuff that goes up on the shelves. Here's what I take away.

1. A headstock chuck is NOT a precision device.
2. Steve's point about tooling costs are well taken. As I continue to learn and tool up this lathe, at some point the tooling cost will outstrip the cost of the lathe. A Bison chuck will get me well past that point in a single purchase.
3. Using a four jaw independent chuck is still one of the best approaches for precision work.
4. Collets are a good alternative for a quick setup.

So for economy's sake, and since I am trying to hold small items typically 3/4" dia or less, and less than a few inches long, I'll continue turning center to center until I'm set up with collets.

Before spending money on collets, am I dreaming that using collets to hold true stock is as accurate as holding with a 4 jaw chuck? is there any meaningful difference in the quality of one collet vs. another? Should I expect to be able to find them in 1/64" increments? Aren't collets safer than using a lathe dog or chucks? How would I even catch anything on a collet? Also, it would seem to me that collets would be the preferred holder for anything finished at higher speeds since there can't be any eccentric loads.

Click to expand...

Continue researching. You need to do.

MEANWHILE .. if your lathe can support the size, start with 5C. There is more "stuff for it, more sources, hence lesser cost.

Disclosure:

Gorton - on B&S #9 adaptor
* B&S #9, native
40 taper, native
* 5C
5C step/pot
2J
* ER 40
* ER 20
TG 100
OA
Rubberflex 9XX
Burnerd Multisize

Probably $12,000 invested? * were brand-new, rest were used or mixed.

If in good condition and screwed directly to the spindle the Jacobs, through bored, headstock chucks are useful devices with very acceptable accuracy. Not quite as good as a collet but not that far short of a lower end, affordable, collet. Of course in their heyday "affordable" and "collet" let alone "collet set" were incompatible concepts for most folk.

I had one of the big ones, 59B?, on my SouthBend 9" machines in "OK used" condition and reckoned practical accuracy was in 0.001" TIR or better range. Certainly not worse. Never bothered to really find out exactly how much better as this was dropping into the range where the overall machine condition was becoming important and both my 9" machines were wartime builds and very much not new. Still capable of high accuracy work at the cost of very careful handling. For mount up and just do the job 0.001 TIR was fine. The new TOS 3 jaw I got after careful saving was perhaps 0.003" TIR at its best point. I never dared measure the old 3 jaws that came with the machines. Was more than happy to find they actually held jobs securely!

Running a headstock chuck via an adapter will almost certainly reduce the accuracy. How much by depends on your lathe and the adapter. The factory adapters were said to be good but I've never seen figures.

Of course all these headstock chucks are now very old so won't be as good as the specifications. Their reputation also comes from an earlier age where routine accuracy expectations from affordable equipment were rather lower than they are now. I think only the older machinists among us have a real appreciation for how much more accuracy you get for your buck from honestly made tooling these days when compared to how things used to be.

Clive

I think the Beall collet chuck would be your best choice.
The Beall Tool Company

ER collets are cheap. They also have the advantage of a 1/32 range or 1mm if you have a metric set.

Headstock mount chucks like that are often used by motor rebuilders to fixture up small armatures for truing and mica undercutting. The matching TS chuck would typically have bronze jaws to support the far end of the armature if it was not with a center. You could probably sell it off and put the money towards a good four jaw HS chuck that would serve you better than this one.

Illinoyance said:

I think the Beall collet chuck would be your best choice.
The Beall Tool Company

They use ER collets are cheap. They also have the advantage of a 1/32 range or 1mm if you have a metric set.

Click to expand...

I have several ER-40 "master" chucks.

For the lathes the FIRST one bought.. having no significant other tooling at the time but 4-J chucks ("many") ... was an ER-40 "plate mount".

Grip the plate in the 4-J, dial it in, you have a collet system 'at once'.

So that covers .094" to 1.024" ER-40's max.

A straight-shank ER-20 can be gripped in the ER-40 to make the tiny stuff easier.

Up and running!

Near-zero to over an inch fast & cheaply on ANY lathe with a 4-J that can grip either the plate or a straight-shank tail.

All my "other" collet systems came LATER!

Illinoyance said:

I think the Beall collet chuck would be your best choice.
The Beall Tool Company

ER collets are cheap. They also have the advantage of a 1/32 range or 1mm if you have a metric set.

Click to expand...

Beall seems to make stuff for woodworking. Are they likely to have the same specs as chucks made for metal working, in terms of runout and repeatability?

Two more cents for you. The Jacob is not very accurate and adding an adapter will compound the problem. There is a jacobs 59b which fits directly to your lathe. Still iffy for accuracy and no way to correct it.

I can recommend making an er40 or 50 collet chuck. You’d be cutting its taper while mounted to your lathe. Now it’s down to the collet accuracy and assembly repeatability of the chuck. Nice short assembly compared to 5c.

If you choose the er collet route, purchase the bearing style nut and for accuracy’s sake don’t buy Chinese collets.

where to source some NOT CHINESE JUNK MT2 collets for draw bar.

Thanks so far for the education, although I'm not sure why someone referred to a wood working supplier.

Within the limits of my present capacity, MT2 collets with a draw bar will certainly accomplish what I need, which is to hold small round stock without destroying the work. They will make short work of turning some mounts to get my milling machine motor motor mounted correctly. This will be a step forward.

I just yesterday had a problem with a retailer (name will remain undisclosed for the moment). I ordered center drills that turned out to be junk.

Please let me know where to buy an MT2 collet set, threaded for a draw bar,1/8" to 1/2" that ISN'T junk, or isn't really the brand that it purports to be. Or should I get used one(s)?

Finally should I expect to find MT2 collets for a draw bar in 1/16" increments? The very next thing I need to turn will start from a 5/16" piece of stock. When done, my mill will turn on without doing the Macarena.

1dogandnoexes said:

Thanks so far for the education, although I'm not sure why someone referred to a wood working supplier.

Within the limits of my present capacity, MT2 collets with a draw bar will certainly accomplish what I need, which is to hold small round stock without destroying the work. They will make short work of turning some mounts to get my milling machine motor motor mounted correctly. This will be a step forward.

I just yesterday had a problem with a retailer (name will remain undisclosed for the moment). I ordered center drills that turned out to be junk.

Please let me know where to buy an MT2 collet set, threaded for a draw bar,1/8" to 1/2" that ISN'T junk, or isn't really the brand that it purports to be. Or should I get used one(s)?

Click to expand...

None of the above.

MT is simply a poor choice for collets, even if Morse themselves made them, Chinese owned as they are.

Put an ER system on the spindle nose. No drawbar, just a spanner wrench. It will allow passing long stock right up to the spindle's bore diameter - no drawtube taking space, and allow gripping shorter goods LARGER than the spindle can pass at all.

You do not need the volume-production cycle-time advantage of the "spring" collet families. MT doesn't release as well as others even if you did. It wasn't designed to BE a collet system. That was an afterthought. AKA "deferred brain fart".

MT #2 is silly-small and in the way regardless - wastes more of the available diameter even before it gets a drawbar.

And "oh, BTW?" Damned near ALL of our "Old line" legendary machine-tool builders began their existence making WOODWORKING machinery. It was what we had the most of at the time to make stuff out of.

That gadget linked wasn't made on a wood-turning lathe out of MDF. It could be good enough. It may also be one of the few that FITS your spindle right out of the box. Price a Bison 5C key-operated nose-closer on D1-3 or D1-any...and count it not such a bad deal, price-wise, either.

Doesn't sound as if your lathe is running one of the industrially-common A, L, D-1 taper-mount spindle nose systems, anyway, does it? Fewer choices of "nose art" are open to yah if not.

Prolly need a better lathe, actually..... all this "MT #2" and spindle-mount Jacobs were on an "M6" @las lathe-shaped-obect only time I recall much of them... but first we slither, THEN we crawl..

Walking, trotting, then running are a ways off, yet, and by then, you may have such of a thing as a better lathe?

"Hang in there". But don't waste yer time nor cash on "hanging" off MT #2 collets.



PS: "1/8" to 1/2" that isn't junk?" Sure you want to know the answer?

Go ogle "Webster Whitcomb", "Schaublin", (Levin, Ames, Stark, Derbyshire, Wade, Hardinge....).

Small and GOOD is not the same as "cheap because it is small".

If it were OTHERWISE? Half of America would have a six-pack of spare hard-ons stashed in the freezer for their Old Age. But "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch", regardless of their intended use after all. .

1dogandnoexes said:

I got the chuck as part of a package deal when a got a drill press. The quality is very high and the condition of the jaws looks very good. For my lathe I'd need an adapter to go from 1 1/2" - 8 tpi to 1" - 8 tpi. There's an adapter on Ebay at a reasonable price but I don't know if it's worth the bother. Has anyone done this and wound up with a runout of .001" or less? Does anyone know of a source for a quality adapter?

Click to expand...

Sell the Jacobs to someone that has a lathe with that spindle size.

Use the money towards a decent enough, appropriately sized 3 jaw chuck. Or better, a 4 jaw.
If anyone got 1 thou or less runout it was luck, not planning, that got them there.

Nothing wrong with the Jacobs direct mount chucks for quick jobs like spinning a part to deburr edges with a file and the like.

As stated ER collet holders with a Morse taper are cheap and available.

Another option is to make your own adapter. You would then be as certain as you can, that the parts were as true as they can be, on your lathe.

Beall tool

Illinoyance said:

I think the Beall collet chuck would be your best choice.
The Beall Tool Company

ER collets are cheap. They also have the advantage of a 1/32 range or 1mm if you have a metric set.

Click to expand...

Ah, light bulb over head. Almost every chuck that doesn't require some adaptadoodledoo starts at a 1 1/2" size spindle. Thermites point about being able to pass stock through the head stock is well taken. For the moment the 58B will go up on the shelf while I continue to look at the options. It might go onto a drill press or wait around for a larger lathe.

Thanks all.