Jacobs chucks.....another great wrecked! - Page 2
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 52
  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Wyoming
    Posts
    3,302
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    8050
    Likes (Received)
    5331

    Default

    I also vote for keeping this thread open. Anyone entering the trade, or just learning machine work for his own amusement, needs to understand that quality in metalworking tools is a hallmark of the trade. If the older guys are here to share what we know, then it follows that we have a duty to warn our younger members about the ruin of an iconic brand like Jacobs so they don't waste their hard-earned money.

    And as for the prohibition of mentioning the junk store that shall not be named, that really serves no purpose. People need to know. Any conversation that might slow the terrible waste of Americans' money on wretched third-world garbage would, in my opinion, be a public service. Today, for the second time in my life, I walked around one of those stores while killing time. How is it even possible, in a manufacturing plant capable of making a five-foot wide toolbox, that the drawers could be an eighth-inch out of parallel? Seriously, the gaps were wedge-shaped by at least that much. You would almost have to do that deliberately. It was actually offensive to look at. And the so-called machinery was scary, the kind of thing you hope fails before it maims somebody.

    I resent that so many jobs have been lost, the popular excuse being that consumers can't tell any difference among products except for price. I don't believe that would continue to be the case if a few unpleasant truths about HF (and equivalent) crap were to be freely discussed instead of being suppressed--and on PM of all places, where you might say there is a concentration of victims. It's time to shine some light, and I for one would really like to hear why that wouldn't be a good idea. I bet the advertisers, who are manufacturers of legitimate industrial tooling and equipment, wouldn't object. Anybody else feel that way?

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    5,201
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1141
    Likes (Received)
    1023

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive603 View Post
    The 5/8" capacity Golden Goose chuck that came with the "unmentionable" bench mill I bought maybe 10 or 12 years back turned out to more than decent quality, despite the name which was less than confidence inspiring. From what I hear they are still decent and good value.
    I also have a Golden Goose chuck that I got with some tooling I bought, and it's a great chuck. So close to the Albrect that I have to believe they just ripped off the entire Albrect design.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    5,202
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    184
    Likes (Received)
    1667

    Default

    I got a Rohm 1/2" chuck for my import drill press. The original chuck was not bad, it was a 20mm and just too big to hold a 1/16" drill bit which I need a lot more often than a 3/4" or 20mm one. So I have both.

    The Rohm is made in Germany and I measured the run out at less than 0.003" about 1" out from the jaws. And that includes the run out of the drill press itself. If memory serves, I paid around $60 or $65 for it. It has a Jacobs taper and mounts on a separate arbor so can be R8 or MT or whatever. It seems to be a good chuck. I have noticed no problems in a couple years of use.

    Rohm makes a 5/8" model but it is about twice the price. I though the 1/2" was the sweet spot between price and capacity. Besides, I already had the 20mm/3/4" chuck.



    Quote Originally Posted by David J. View Post
    So...my last Jacobs also sucked, so who makes a good key type now days?
    Something with up to about 5/8 inch capacity that I can mount a R8 taper on.
    David

  4. Likes 77ironhead liked this post
  5. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Geilenkirchen, Germany
    Posts
    2,470
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1465
    Likes (Received)
    1243

    Default

    These Chinese components and tools are a crap shoot. Some are OK, but many are just junk. Buying brand names is no longer a safe bet for quality. Most of the surviving name brands are now sourcing production to China and many of these products are not labeled "Made in China". Buyer beware! I recently purchased a new Shars 4 jaw scroll chuck. It came with a semi finished back plate. I finished the back plate to spot on accuracy. I bolted up the chuck. The chuck body ran true to 5 tenths everywhere. The jaws had a TIR of .012". I totally disassembled, deburred and cleaned. Still had the same issue. I tried regrinding the jaws. It was a waste of time. It is now in the scrap bin. I'm out $250 and two days a work. Returning the chuck was possible, but not feasible because of shipping costs.

    PS It came with a test sheet that it was tested to .001" TIR.............bullshit!

  6. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    corvallis,or
    Posts
    877
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    90
    Likes (Received)
    369

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    Buying brand names is no longer a safe bet for quality. Most of the surviving name brands are now sourcing production to China and many of these products are not labeled "Made in China". Buyer beware! I recently purchased a new Shars 4 jaw scroll chuck. ......
    It sounds like you are referring to Shars as a "name brand". Haven't they always been an import crapshoot?

  7. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    176
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    115

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mTeryk View Post
    It sounds like you are referring to Shars as a "name brand". Haven't they always been an import crapshoot?
    Somewhat, but they do take returns on their defective products (not that I've had many, just "starter items" that weren't accurate to tenths) and in my experience have always covered return shipping. They're not much for fit and finish but, rather functionality and economy. Fords and Ferraris sort of thing.

  8. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Gaston, Oregon USA
    Posts
    1,527
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    6
    Likes (Received)
    346

    Default

    I provide a 14N series drill chuck in every shipset I make. They used to be made in the USA, but as soon as Jacobs moved to China, the chucks changed.
    I've purchased probably a hundred of these chucks over the years, and the ones that were made in China, the key didn't even engage the chuck smoothly.
    I bought TWO Chinese chucks four or five years ago and then switched to LFA. I found out about them at IMTS several shows ago.

    I wouldn't say LFA's chucks are the same as the good old American Jacobs, but they're way better than the CHINESE Jacobs. I find it disgusting that investment bankers buy quality American manufacturers, either sell their real estate and do a lease back, or borrow against the good name of a company to get back their purchase price and then run the companies into bankruptcy, because of the unsustainable increased overhead. Americans have been turning into Walmart shoppers, or Harbor Freight shoppers for years. It's up to EACH one of us to draw a line in the sand and not cross it. In 2000 when I bought VersaMil Inc. I purchased a lot of different MADE in America parts for my sets. As each different company went out of business or went to China, I would either find a different source or end up manufacturing the parts myself. When I received my first two Jacobs chucks made in China, I thought about making them in house. Taking apart a 14N drill chuck revealed a highly crafted, incredibly well made chuck, that there's NO WAY I could even dream of making them for what Jacobs managed to sell them for. I understand the motivation, to try and keep costs down. But we as consumers can't go bitch and moan because a drill chuck costs THREE Hundred dollars instead of $150.00. There's a LOT of precision work that has to go into a drill chuck, but I agree whoever owns Jacobs Chuck right now, has destroyed another American manufacturer.

    There was a bit of warning about Jacobs chucks demise. I recall there was an auction at their USA facility, and if someone had the drive and balls, another drill chuck manufacturer COULD have been created. But at the time, who could have predicted just how AWFUL their products would become. It's disgusting they moved production to China, the quality went to hell, AND their prices went up. NO ONE should ever buy their chucks in America. I know I don't.

  9. Likes Milland, kenh, Davis In SC liked this post
  10. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Geneva Illinois USA
    Posts
    6,345
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2750
    Likes (Received)
    2469

    Default

    Now that we have thoroughly trashed the Jacobs China chucks, we need a list of manufacturers that can produce the equivalent of Jacobs of old, English, Spanish, German or whatever. Price is certainly a factor, but price fades quickly with a well made part. You will be reminded of the crap every time you use it.

    Tom

  11. Likes 77ironhead liked this post
  12. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    231
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    50
    Likes (Received)
    84

    Default

    I needed a drill chuck for a drill press at home and ended up buying a Shars keyless drill chuck (I think 5/8" capacity) for around $40. It is very well made. I was VERY shocked at the great fit and finish of the product. It may turn out to be crappy material and not last, but initially I am impressed.

  13. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Geneva Illinois USA
    Posts
    6,345
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2750
    Likes (Received)
    2469

    Default

    To answer Brian's question about how did American industry collapse at the hand of venture capitalist read the book "When the Machine Stopped" by Max Holland, a recounting of the destruction of Burgmaster. Makes you sick to you stomach.

    Tom

  14. Likes RDL liked this post
  15. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Indianapolis, Indiana, USA
    Posts
    5,473
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2426
    Likes (Received)
    934

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    NO WAY I could even dream of making them for what Jacobs managed to sell them for.
    I'm thinking powdered metal (it's damned strong nowadays) and CNC might work for a product line not owned by "investors".

  16. Likes Oldwrench, yardbird liked this post
  17. #32
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Wyoming
    Posts
    3,302
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    8050
    Likes (Received)
    5331

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by S_W_Bausch View Post
    I'm thinking powdered metal (it's damned strong nowadays) and CNC might work for a product line not owned by "investors".
    Just about anything will work for a product line not owned by "investors." When the individual with the vision also owns the place, the quality will reflect his personal values. I wouldn't know what the personal values are of the typical yuppie VC are, but they probably don't include an appreciation for the workmanship required to produce decent machine tool accessories...

  18. Likes RC Mech, Graham Gott liked this post
  19. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    1,130
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    965

    Default

    I am guessing that the 20 year old 3 -1/2", 4 - 1/4" like new Jacobs super chucks mounted on Nikken Cat 40 arbors that came with our used CNC have a bit of of value these days!

  20. Likes Oldwrench, TeachMePlease liked this post
  21. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Central Ohio, USA
    Posts
    1,940
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    828
    Likes (Received)
    555

    Default

    I think this is an interesting comparison since the data below was all taken from one site, namely Travers Tool.


    Brand JACOBS
    Model # 14N
    Capacity 1/32" - 1/2"
    Taper 3JT
    Uses Key # K3
    Style Ball Bearing
    Weight 2.37500
    Country of Origin Import
    $205.49


    Brand LLAMBRICH
    Model # CBB-13 J3
    Capacity 1/16" - 1/2"
    Taper 3JT
    Uses Key # K3
    Style Ball Bearing
    Diameter 2.44"
    weight 2.6 lbs
    Country of Origin SPAIN
    $160.79


    Brand LFA
    Model # 83S-6A
    Capacity 0 - 1/2" (0 - 13mm)
    Taper 3JT
    Uses Key # T6
    Style Advanced Teflon Ring
    Weight 1.67000
    Country of Origin FRANCE
    $141.19


    Brand Shark
    Model ?
    Style Ball Bearing Geared Key Super Chuck
    Capacity Inch: 1/32" ~ 1/2"
    weight 2.65 lbs
    Country of Origin Import
    $69.99

  22. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    382
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    213
    Likes (Received)
    325

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    I provide a 14N series drill chuck in every shipset I make. They used to be made in the USA, but as soon as Jacobs moved to China, the chucks changed.
    I've purchased probably a hundred of these chucks over the years, and the ones that were made in China, the key didn't even engage the chuck smoothly.
    I bought TWO Chinese chucks four or five years ago and then switched to LFA. I found out about them at IMTS several shows ago.

    I wouldn't say LFA's chucks are the same as the good old American Jacobs, but they're way better than the CHINESE Jacobs. I find it disgusting that investment bankers buy quality American manufacturers, either sell their real estate and do a lease back, or borrow against the good name of a company to get back their purchase price and then run the companies into bankruptcy, because of the unsustainable increased overhead. Americans have been turning into Walmart shoppers, or Harbor Freight shoppers for years. It's up to EACH one of us to draw a line in the sand and not cross it. In 2000 when I bought VersaMil Inc. I purchased a lot of different MADE in America parts for my sets. As each different company went out of business or went to China, I would either find a different source or end up manufacturing the parts myself. When I received my first two Jacobs chucks made in China, I thought about making them in house. Taking apart a 14N drill chuck revealed a highly crafted, incredibly well made chuck, that there's NO WAY I could even dream of making them for what Jacobs managed to sell them for. I understand the motivation, to try and keep costs down. But we as consumers can't go bitch and moan because a drill chuck costs THREE Hundred dollars instead of $150.00. There's a LOT of precision work that has to go into a drill chuck, but I agree whoever owns Jacobs Chuck right now, has destroyed another American manufacturer.

    There was a bit of warning about Jacobs chucks demise. I recall there was an auction at their USA facility, and if someone had the drive and balls, another drill chuck manufacturer COULD have been created. But at the time, who could have predicted just how AWFUL their products would become. It's disgusting they moved production to China, the quality went to hell, AND their prices went up. NO ONE should ever buy their chucks in America. I know I don't.
    You HAVE to be the guy I did a little work for back in 2000 then. My old shop was on Woodstock in SE Portland.

  23. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Gaston, Oregon USA
    Posts
    1,527
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    6
    Likes (Received)
    346

    Default

    i don't remember writing any checks out to any shops called "hounddogforever"

    Not wanting to be a doom and gloomer but some reality by someone who manufactures machines in America. FACT- is there ANY manufacturer of either a hand held electric drills left in America? MAYBE Clausing still makes a drill press. So we have a need for drill chucks in some CNC machines, and maybe in manual lathes. I know in my CNC machines I tend to use collet chucks instead of big clunky drill chucks. so the market for drill chucks is NOTHING like it was thirty years ago.
    With Milwaukee Electric making their hand drills overseas, even that market disappeared.

    So say some ambitious person figures let's make drill chucks. The market is diminishing, the costs of manufacturing in America would make the drill chuck cost MORE than what most people want to spend on an entire electric drill. The other day I ran across a web site that listed the pay of firemen and policemen in California. Tons of them are making 200 to 300K PER YEAR! After 25 years they get to retire at 80% of their wages. Now an ambitious guy may decide to open a manufacturing plant to make drill chucks. With personal property taxes on every machine used in your shop, wages that make it impossible to hire people to make drill chucks that you're trying to sell for less than two hundred dollars, with the health benefits, here in Oregon maternity leave benefits for MEN AND women, required sick day benefits- SHEESH- isn't it just easier to go be a fireman? There's just not that many people that want to work hard and risk everything to make a quality product. Of course if you DID make a fantastic product and tried selling it for three hundred dollars- you would get grief for being so expensive! We as Americans have become so accepting of buying cheap junk that breaks in six months, or never works right from new, that the market for high quality items is truly a NICHE market. Once a company outsources their products to China, I don't see any way they can come back. Just the infrastructure of a manufacturing plant, is an incredible hurdle. But somehow Hass making CNC machine tools in California has figured a way. That's a company worth studying! Maybe there is hope. i know in my quest to make machines, it's been somewhat thankless, and if I wasn't a complete loon, I think i should have taken the easy road,and gone and become a fireman. At the end of the day, MAKING things has got to produce an income that's high enough to offset the risk and hassles of having a business in the USA. I would hazard to say NONE of the main players that are buying up companies like Danaher, really care about making the BEST product possible. They're interested in profit, or shareholder return. You don't make as much profit if you're trying to build the best. That's called JOB Satisfaction, and that's NOT the motivating factor for companies taking their manufacturing to China or Mexico. I'm not even going to mention OSHA or the other myriad government agencies that think manufacturing is the enemy of the people.

    LFA claims to make their chucks in France. Now I suppose they do, not having any proof that their parts are imported from China or they make their Chucks in China and assemble them in France. I've bought probably 25 of them now and they seem okay. I guess I should USE one in my shop instead of reselling them.

  24. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Southeast Michigan
    Posts
    6,644
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    249
    Likes (Received)
    1551

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    i don't remember writing any checks out to any shops called "hounddogforever"

    Not wanting to be a doom and gloomer but some reality by someone who manufactures machines in America. FACT- is there ANY manufacturer of either a hand held electric drills left in America? MAYBE Clausing still makes a drill press. So we have a need for drill chucks in some CNC machines, and maybe in manual lathes. I know in my CNC machines I tend to use collet chucks instead of big clunky drill chucks. so the market for drill chucks is NOTHING like it was thirty years ago.
    With Milwaukee Electric making their hand drills overseas, even that market disappeared.

    So say some ambitious person figures let's make drill chucks. The market is diminishing, the costs of manufacturing in America would make the drill chuck cost MORE than what most people want to spend on an entire electric drill. The other day I ran across a web site that listed the pay of firemen and policemen in California. Tons of them are making 200 to 300K PER YEAR! After 25 years they get to retire at 80% of their wages. Now an ambitious guy may decide to open a manufacturing plant to make drill chucks. With personal property taxes on every machine used in your shop, wages that make it impossible to hire people to make drill chucks that you're trying to sell for less than two hundred dollars, with the health benefits, here in Oregon maternity leave benefits for MEN AND women, required sick day benefits- SHEESH- isn't it just easier to go be a fireman? There's just not that many people that want to work hard and risk everything to make a quality product. Of course if you DID make a fantastic product and tried selling it for three hundred dollars- you would get grief for being so expensive! We as Americans have become so accepting of buying cheap junk that breaks in six months, or never works right from new, that the market for high quality items is truly a NICHE market. Once a company outsources their products to China, I don't see any way they can come back. Just the infrastructure of a manufacturing plant, is an incredible hurdle. But somehow Hass making CNC machine tools in California has figured a way. That's a company worth studying! Maybe there is hope. i know in my quest to make machines, it's been somewhat thankless, and if I wasn't a complete loon, I think i should have taken the easy road,and gone and become a fireman. At the end of the day, MAKING things has got to produce an income that's high enough to offset the risk and hassles of having a business in the USA. I would hazard to say NONE of the main players that are buying up companies like Danaher, really care about making the BEST product possible. They're interested in profit, or shareholder return. You don't make as much profit if you're trying to build the best. That's called JOB Satisfaction, and that's NOT the motivating factor for companies taking their manufacturing to China or Mexico. I'm not even going to mention OSHA or the other myriad government agencies that think manufacturing is the enemy of the people.

    LFA claims to make their chucks in France. Now I suppose they do, not having any proof that their parts are imported from China or they make their Chucks in China and assemble them in France. I've bought probably 25 of them now and they seem okay. I guess I should USE one in my shop instead of reselling them.
    But given your statements of the realities of running a manufacturing business, how is Germany still doing it with precision products? Italy? Spain? There are plenty of examples of companies that are still manufacturing quality products with more stringent safety/environmental/governmental requirements.

    What it comes down to is want vs need.

    You NEED a Haas (or other CNC machine, and Haas is arguably one of the more entry level size machines)...most customers didn't need a chuck that will hold .001 runout. It's made to hold a drill, and we know that that hole is not going to be straight, round, or really even what most would call precise. They very well have made them for years so that they would hold .001 runout, and everyone has gotten used to great fit and finish...but they are testing the boundries to determine what fit and finish their customers will accept. Like you said, this isn't an individual applying their values, it's shareholders making a profit.

    But then, how's Albrecht doing it...you don't need an Albrecht, but damn they feel good.

  25. Likes TeachMePlease liked this post
  26. #38
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Wyoming
    Posts
    3,302
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    8050
    Likes (Received)
    5331

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by snowman
    There are plenty of examples of companies that are still manufacturing quality products with more stringent safety/environmental/governmental requirements.
    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected]
    At the end of the day, MAKING things has got to produce an income that's high enough to offset the risk and hassles of having a business in the USA
    Yes, absolutely, to both of these observations...although perhaps the root of the problem lies in one's definition of "high enough." It's been high enough for me, but a venture capital guy probably wouldn't be satisfied with what I earn. And outside of closed ownership, if a company is publicly traded the shareholders just want their dividends or capital gains, they don't know or care about accurate drill chucks.

    But come to think of it, maybe it doesn't matter in this particular instance with this particular family of tool. Today's principal customer for drill chucks is making birdhouses instead of ball turrets, which is why he can buy tools at Horror Fright and get away with it.

    There can be no doubt a Frank Mari (as well as several other people on here) could make drill chucks the equal of Jacobs' best, but let's stop and think for a minute just what the potential consumption is today versus collets. If we are manufacturing a product that needs holes we use machining centers. If we use a drill press anywhere in the process it's probably for deburring the back side of said holes. The fact is, with a 12,000 RPM spindle a Superchuck is not gonna be your first choice for holding that carbide drill. We have a number of Jacobs chucks in superb condition but they've been stored in drawers for years, along with all the tapping heads.

    I hate it but it's not like the Chinese took over a product with the unlimited future it had in 1943. Might be a bit harder for them to gain a meaningful market share for CNC machines where the users won't tolerate crap.

  27. Likes TeachMePlease, Ohio Mike liked this post
  28. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Geilenkirchen, Germany
    Posts
    2,470
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1465
    Likes (Received)
    1243

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mTeryk View Post
    It sounds like you are referring to Shars as a "name brand". Haven't they always been an import crapshoot?
    Yes, they are a Chinese importer and a crap shoot. My logic has been that buying brand names is no longer a quality guarantee, so why should I pay for premium names? This has worked OK in the past, sometimes. This time I got screwed, but it is the gamble you take in today's marketplace brand name or otherwise.

  29. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    628
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    88
    Likes (Received)
    201

    Default

    Ive had similar problem with jacob chuck the last 2 time i gave them a chance.

    I now switch all my lathe to rohm chuck they are 15 bucks less and are way better in term of quality and life time. I dont know how my guys do it but they go trought a pair of jaw each year on every damn chuck. Maybe its just me but that seems alot.

    Envoyé de mon SM-G920W8 en utilisant Tapatalk


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •