Is it just me or do drill bits suck now? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Buy a couple yg gold p drills and then tell us what you think
    Don


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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    DNelson

    I've run these before at my last job in screw machine length. My impression was that they were ok in most things
    and fantastic in aluminum. I'm trying to buy US, but am feeling more and more at a loss these days for my efforts.
    I just need to drill decent finish/size holes in mild without a struggle or three or four steps. That's my frustration right now..

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    I guess if nothing else I'm just a little irked because I just spent $350 on a new US fractional index and am having the exact same issues as my last much cheaper set. jeez it really may just be me, but damn I can't help but feeling annoyed right now...

    unthinned webs. Might just be the future of machining, you know?

    I am a huge fan of spade drills for roughing stock for what it's worth....

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    Quote Originally Posted by travis.taylor View Post
    expensive drills that seem to do their best to lobe and drill oversize...
    Usually that's a symptom of unevenly ground lips ... and I'm not sure what you are talking about with "thin webs" ? Split points sure but as far as I know, webs are webs, unless you mean the parabolic ones and I don't think they are thinner so much as a different shape.

    Plus I'm not sure what you are complaning about re finish ? Drilled holes have not had a specially good finish since I was knee-high to a grasshopper ...

    Are you sure you're not just getting old and cranky ?

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    My employer buys in bulk from National Twist Drill. I bought my own (cobalt) from Norseman/Viking. They both perform better than Harbor Freight, and better than Binford Specials. There isn't anything radically new about twist drill manufacture that I'm aware of. I think it maybe just you. But don't feel too bad about it, I had to do a LOT of research before settling on the Norseman/Viking brand. And I had to come to terms with getting old and cranky, too.

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    It seems that most store-bought drills suck. I have been away from the deer blind shop for a number of weeks and Rob bought a set of drill and a two-pack. I tried our normal drill process of C clamping a backer board and drilling through 1" aluminum square tubing, a thin layer of carpet and then through 3/16 LP Smart Side.
    The first drill was hard to push and when it broke through left an outward pucker and tore off a chunk of paint.

    looking at the edge one flute still had about .005 circle grind. The primary did not come up sharp to the cutting edge.

    Trying the second new drill and found about the sams. Inspecting, it only had about 5* primary clearance. Not enough for aluminum, wood or even steel..what were they thinking?

    So, I, grabbed an old drill out of the took box, hand sharpened it and it worked fine.

    *The other problem with the new modern bargain drill is they are glass hard right into the shank so they wear out your chuck and break with the slightest off-angle.

    Older Brand Name drill companies likely still know how to make drills.

    Good drills are hard at the point and up the flutes but a little drawn down so they can actually bend a little with not breaking.

    It seems that you can buy a set of drills for the price of a few name-brand ones the size you need, So non-tool people end up with a bunch of not-needed drill sizes... For a regular job, it is best to buy a dozen right size quality drills.
    Last edited by michiganbuck; 10-18-2021 at 07:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tnmgcarbide View Post
    maybe you're buying 'drill bits'.... as in 'brace and bit'...
    a woodworking tool. when i was a young tradesman in the late
    1980', if you mentioned "drill bit " among old school machinists, you would get a fucking stare and glare that could
    kill. there ain't no drill bits in a metal shop.

    btw, there is no difference that i can tell among usa drills
    produced in 1970 and 2020 . what i can't see is a fucking
    thing , because my old man eyesight sucks. there you have it.
    Assuming they call "drill bits" just "drills" what do they call handheld drills? Power braces?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strostkovy View Post
    Assuming they call "drill bits" just "drills" what do they call handheld drills? Power braces?

    Hand held drills are still drills no matter where they are. Useless without a means to turn them such as a lathe, mill, drill press, or drill motor. Drill "bits" are those fragments left after you break the drill.

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    Used to be they were called "drill motor" like td mentioned. Often they are nowadays called "electric drill" or "pneumatic drill" as is appropriate. I generally try not to be too picky about terminology, it's easy for someone to think one is being pedantic when just trying to be helpful. It is the way of the world these days.

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    no idea what drills you guys are getting. my holes are more often too small than too big. and the finish? what do i care?

    thunderjet, out of curiosity, your "45° spotter" is 90°, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by travis.taylor View Post
    Per the title, is it just me or do most drills just seem to suck now?

    I've been having one hell of a time trying to find twist drills these days that don't have a fantastic tendency to lobe like mad and it's driving ME mad..

    It doesn't seem to matter brand or place of manufacture, almost every twist drill I've had my hands on lately doesn't want to make a round hole with acceptable finish. It's not my machines or drill chucks; they're good to go and I run the drills straight from a collet in my Tree 2uvr 90% of the time. I've been drilling holes for a proper minute now and I don't think my technique sucks THAT bad and I don't ever remember having so much trouble.

    The only thing that strikes me as being the culprit is today's uber aggressive grinds. You find them even on super cheap drills and I'm beginning to suspect that without a bit of center web rubbing,
    you have serious lack of stabilization for the bit. The old drills used to have plain webs, now almost none do no matter the price.

    The only drills I'm remotely satisfied with these days are U.S. made stub length drills. IS IT JUST ME?

    Edit: Mostly drilling mild steel and try to stick to 135 points...

    Travis
    In answer to your first question yes I think they are not as good quality. Already you have been figuring out some things. I have seen plenty of junk tooling. I have had to make it work on the fly to get jobs done myself.

    Any drill must certainly do it’s job in a highly effective manner or it is a complete waste of hard earned money and also of extremely valuable time.

    The time wasted buying and receiving perishable tooling which can not perform its useful function is lost forever. What is that lost time worth in money or in wasting the finite time which we spend on this earth? I think it is a high cost in regard to having a productive life span. That happens and how we deal with the problem is how we assign life’s value.

    So everyone makes mistakes and in today’s fast paced mass production world it is not uncommon nor unwise to set proper controls of quality and consistency-proven. But for the lack of focus we can become careless or display a cavalier heart and mind set whereby a company or individuals can end up missing or intentionally disregarding a viable performing product. Such as a drill.

    Point of observation and inspection falls to the end user (good news/bad news - we have the help but we are it!) and so needed tooling is delivered into the hands of you/us the end user.

    With drills I can look at the grinds on at least the working drills which I have which are working to check them against what I am having trouble with now.

    This is a simple way to consider any problems there. Add to that the extensive materials cut which covers the different types of grinds, angle of drill points, and other critical factors.

    The very very first place which I always look for help on anything is in my Machinery’s handbook current version or past ones. I have many versions to use as there is only so much one can put in them they have to pick and choose information to highlight each go - each version.

    Complaint department;

    Rant…
    If anyone will not bother to have that book then don’t go asking everyone for help. What the heck is wanted then from those who have one would it be that it be read to you each night as a bedtime story? Maybe be good and settle for some fruit loop cereal to finish before work in your high chair next morning before you go to work.

    End rant……

    Drill points like HSS ground tooling are amazing things as the different materials demand different different angles and cutting clearances. These things were figured out through trial and error by skilled machinists who put this all on paper before any of us were born. It is a art form certainly mastered completely by machinists like Michiganbuck. He is a pro.

    I personally check the grinds because I know from sight and feel what a good drill looks like. That comes from study and experience and even from making mistakes. As long as I/we learn from our mistakes then that all is ok just keep plugging. I look at the grinds and roll the drills on a surface plate as much as I feel the need to see if the darn things are bent. Many times they are and badly. They get bent after the factory most likely due to careless handling and shipping plus storage.

    Sometimes I will check the diameters of them to verify they are the right size before dumping 15 into the drill index. A wrong drill size is embarrassing on so many levels for even more than one person Especially if the hole is oversized. The boss will always in that case ask you whether we checked the drill before using it. If we are the boss ourselves we can always fire ourselves at least for a little while.

    I know quickly when drills are not working well especially when they do not so bottom line take a little time and familiarize yourselves and pay attention to detail. That is our job life and function having acquired skill and conscientious character.Yes I said character and it is hard to transmit to someone else because it has to come from within us as that is a inside job.

    Everything must perform properly to be right and unless what we make is right we will not be paid. There is that.

    Inspecting visually and even using magnifiers because we need to see some things better is highly useful it takes at least a little time and it is well spent if avoiding scrap.

    Just some feedback on the topic. It is never fun when things act the fool. Usually it is something simple or overlooked. It does not make the dog return home to the family at bedtime nor does it bring the cows home either. Things will work out.

    The cows will be found and that dog probably found a place to stay the night while a machinist who ran a hot dog cart made a new friend and brought the dog home to visit for the night later to be returned home the next day. Yay there is a God in heaven. Things will get better then get worse and then get better again. Hang in there babay.

    Good luck on the drills young fellow.
    T

  16. #32
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    You get what you pay for. These guys still make drills in St. Paul, MN and they make drills and taps. I've rebuilt machines for them and it is a heck of a GREAT operation. Viking Drill & Tool | Product Catalog of Drill Bits

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    I think everyone on this site knows you are talking about a drill when folks refer to them as drill bits. Enough already.

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    A good hole is something that occurs when a long spiral of metal is ejecting from the hole.
    A bad hole is when metal chunks are ejected. And in the ejection process the hole walls are scratched.

    A pecking order attempts to clean the chunks from the two flutes and oil the tip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crossthread View Post
    I think everyone on this site knows you are talking about a drill when folks refer to them as drill bits. Enough already.
    I think everyone on this site needs to become part of the rest of the world and call them drill bits. Because the material they are used in had ZERO to do with the fact that you still need to make a hole in something. And if you go to *any* supplier and ask to see their selection of drills, the first question they will ask you is, "Do you want corded or cordless?"

    Guess what, English is a living language: it changes, it evolves according to common usage. Uncommon usage tends to be marginalized into oblivion.

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    We've never had much difficulty using the typical approach of spot drills, screw-length drills, THEN full length drills, boring bars, reamers, etc. and running at the right speed and feed. We don't have high expectations of drill bits though. If it needs to be close, it gets reamed or bored after drilling.

    We tend to work out of the same big Huot drill index that's full of 1000 different brands and grinds. Whenever we pick a drill, it's up to you to make sure it's sharp and mics to the correct diameter. When putting it away, if it's smaller than 1/4" and dull it goes in the scrap metal bin. If it's bigger than 1/4", sharpen it before you put it away. For years, we accepted free-be buckets of mixed drills and sorted them out, and now when we do run low, we'll buy whatever the tool catalog has at the time, but we don't really swear by one type or brand over the other. Personally, I tend to be warry of magic coatings and geometry on drill bits. IMHO, they're a highly expendable tool and not worth the fuss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    You get what you pay for. These guys still make drills in St. Paul, MN and they make drills and taps. I've rebuilt machines for them and it is a heck of a GREAT operation. Viking Drill & Tool | Product Catalog of Drill Bits
    I can back this up with my previous post, I bit the financial bullet and standardized on the Viking/Norseman brand in cobalt, split-point drills. Happy ever since, worth every penny.

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    Was tempted to try rehardening and tempering, I notice drills are tempered spring to avoid breakage, the good ones used to snap like a carrot, you can bend the modern ones, just bought some skf drills, 5mm they drill beautifully and snap so dead hard is the way they are, not recommended for portable tools!
    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by boslab View Post
    Was tempted to try rehardening and tempering, I notice drills are tempered spring to avoid breakage, the good ones used to snap like a carrot, you can bend the modern ones, just bought some skf drills, 5mm they drill beautifully and snap so dead hard is the way they are, not recommended for portable tools!
    Mark
    Probably not a great idea unless you have a vacuum furnace. Otherwise you'd probably need to grind the lands again after heat treat due to damage, and there goes your drill size. Also HSS is tricky to heat treat, different than regular carbon steels.

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    I agree, I don’t have a furnace at the moment ( however there’s a neat anti oxidation trick using methyl alcohol to make the furnace carburising, see Dan Gilbert shop tour on YouTube (( if you can stand seeing how the other half live))
    Mark

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