Kurt adding 4% for tariffs ???

Bubba73 · Jun 8, 2019

Was thinking of picking up a their small KTR 35 tool room vise. However not sure why if Kurt is made in America why they have added 4% for tariffs is confusing. Unless the steel comes from china or elsewhere. Anyone know the real deal?
Says on their site they have added 4% to all orders.

Limy Sami · Jun 8, 2019

No such thing as a free lunch - never was and never will be, ……..the subject of trade tariffs is exceedingly complex, often with a single small if not almost insignificant move at world level, having knock on effects that multiply at each link down the chain

Some of the reasoning here https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-metals-tariffs-have-more-losers-than-winners

Bubba73 · Jun 8, 2019

Just thinking if Kurt vises are made entirely with US Steel and US assembly then why the 4% extra for tariffs?
Makes no sense.

DDoug · Jun 8, 2019

Bubba73 said:
Just thinking if Kurt vises are made entirely with US Steel and US assembly then why the 4% extra for tariffs?
Makes no sense.

It does if you answer this question:
"Why does a dog lick himself ?"

Mcgyver · Jun 8, 2019

It doesn't matter where the steel comes from, tariffs increase the price. Look at it this way. Say steel was $1 and 25% comes from overseas. A 100% tariff is imposed so import steel now costs $2. With 1/4 of supply now at $2, do you think the remaining domestic 75% is going to stay at $1? At the $1 mark on the price curve, you removed 25% of the supply so of course price moves up the curve to a new and higher equilibrium.

Bubba73 · Jun 8, 2019

Just seems strange. The other US makers of vises have not raised prices. Of course Kurt is entitled to charge whatever they want.

Limy Sami · Jun 8, 2019

Bubba73 said:
Just thinking if Kurt vises are made entirely with US Steel and US assembly then why the 4% extra for tariffs?
Makes no sense.

That's if they actually use 100% US steel and materials, ……..Just say ;- that the steel or CI comes in to the US in a crude form and is reprocessed in the US to Kurts spec, …………..under some ''marketing rules'' that would count as US metal, …...but under trade tariff rules it's an import, so liable to a levy.

I could be wrong, but from what I read the big Detroit automakers all have factories and subcontractors in other countries, …...now the cars may well be built in the US, and marketed 100% made in the USA, ….but if so much as a single 1/4'' washer has been imported, then it could be liable to a tariff, ……….and that's without going in to where the steel to make said washer came from in the first place.

Ziggy2 · Jun 8, 2019

Limy Sami said:
That's if they actually use 100% US steel and materials, ……..Just say ;- that the steel or CI comes in to the US in a crude form and is reprocessed in the US to Kurts spec, …………..under some ''marketing rules'' that would count as US metal, …...but under trade tariff rules it's an import, so liable to a levy.

I could be wrong, but from what I read the big Detroit automakers all have factories and subcontractors in other countries, …...now the cars may well be built in the US, and marketed 100% made in the USA, ….but if so much as a single 1/4'' washer has been imported, then it could be liable to a tariff, ……….and that's without going in to where the steel to make said washer came from in the first place.

The tariff only applies to the specific item imported.

If there is a particular washer that is imported and subject to the tariff, then only the price of the washer is increased with the extra cost of the tariff.

For Kurt to add 4% and say it is because of the tariffs and if they are truly using US sourced products, then their reason seems bogus.

To increase the the price of their vise by 4% and just say due to increased raw material cost would be more accurate.

lucky7 · Jun 8, 2019

Starting a tariff war is like being a one legged man in an ass kicking contest.

Not wise long or short term.

Lucky7

And a dog licks itself because it can ;-)

Ries · Jun 8, 2019

The steel tariffs apply to far more than just chinese steel- which we dont actually import much of anyway. Most chinese steel is cheap stuff- black pipe, rebar, some sheet. But the tariffs hit a lot of countries we import much more from- Canada, for example- those tariffs were just dropped on May 19 or so. So any steel from canadian mills earlier in the year was tariffed.
We import a fair amount of steel from Russia, Germany, Turkey, Vietnam, and other countries that are not china but still have tariffs added.
Somewhere around 25% of the steel sold in the USA, depending on the year, is imported, and a relatively large percentage of that was covered by tariffs, with the Mexico and Canada tariffs being dropped in late may.

But, as mentioned above- when the tariffs went on, ALL US steel prices went up to a "market" price that included the cost of the tariff.
Nobody wants to leave money on the table- Nucor and USS raised their prices too.

I mostly buy stainless, none of it from China, mostly US mills, but some from france, italy, russia, or even korea.
All stainless prices went up within a week of the tariffs being instituted, didnt have anything to do with where it was made. Market price is market price.
I probably paid an extra 3 grand last year in metal costs- lucky for me, it was a low volume year- the year before, I went thru over 12 tons of various steels, and would have had to pay a lot more.

Mark Rand · Jun 8, 2019

Is it possible that Kurt sell a proportion of their product in China, Canada, Germany etc. and that the countervailing tariffs have buggered their sales and cash flow to some extent? That'd be a reason to raise prices due to 'tariffs'.

Edit to add:- I didn't mean countervailing tariffs, I meant opposing tariffs, I think. Can't find the right word for it...

howieranger · Jun 8, 2019

The price of steel in the US has gone from $1752.00 to $3756.00 from late 2017 to now for basically two reasons Tariffs and growing demand in the US. Economists vary on what factor has more influence but %60 do to tariffs is a common estimate. So Kurt's cost of steel has gone up.

Bubba73 · Jun 8, 2019

howieranger said:
The price of steel in the US has gone from $1752.00 to $3756.00 from late 2017 to now for basically two reasons Tariffs and growing demand in the US. Economists vary on what factor has more influence but %60 do to tariffs is a common estimate. So Kurt's cost of steel has gone up.

Then you would think every company would be raising prices. However Orange Vise is made in the US and their prices have not changed since the tariffs. Nor has Chick.

Limy Sami · Jun 8, 2019

Ziggy2 said:
The tariff only applies to the specific item imported.

If there is a particular washer that is imported and subject to the tariff, then only the price of the washer is increased with the extra cost of the tariff.

For Kurt to add 4% and say it is because of the tariffs and if they are truly using US sourced products, then their reason seems bogus.

To increase the the price of their vise by 4% and just say due to increased raw material cost would be more accurate.

I completely agree with you, and your reasons behind the price hike, …...and when did truth come in to business - especially pricing.

Mud · Jun 8, 2019

Limy Sami said:
I completely agree with you, and your reasons behind the price hike, …...and when did truth come in to business - especially pricing.

My (previous) welding supplier put an energy surcharge on every invoice, and put a hazmat surcharge on every invoice regardless of what the item(s) on the invoice were or were made of. Even a single clear plastic 4X5 helmet shield window all by itself on an invoice got those charges. It's because they can.

I miss the honesty of Honda dealers in the 70s when they couldn't get enough cars to sell during the gas crisis who put a line item on the window sticker of ADP (Additional Dealer Profit). They did it because they could.

Ries · Jun 8, 2019

price increases in raw materials are dealt with in different ways by different companies.
if you are working at a very low markup, and materials are a high percentage of your costs, you tend to raise prices quickly when materials costs go up.
when we were having a lumber tariff war with canada a few years ago, carpenters still got paid the same amount per hour, but framing costs went up right away to current lumber costs.
A basic Kurt vise weighs around 80lbs, and costs around $700. Figure maybe 80 cents a pound, thats 65 bucks worth of steel. The tariff increase might cost them an extra fifteen bucks. If they raise their prices by 4%, thats only 28 bucks.
Probably, they had some steel in stock they bought for less.
They ate the costs for a while, to keep prices stable.
And, at a certain point, they just saw how much they were losing on every vise, versus their desired profit per vise, so they bump it up. Most likely, they bump it up a bit more than today's cost, as they cant predict what will happen in the future.

Some companies can afford to eat cost increases for longer than others.

I frequently sign fixed price contracts 2 or 3 years in advance of actually buying the material- so when I do that, I estimate a material cost well above the quotes at the time of signing. If I make money on materials not rising as much as I predicted, I win- but, usually, other things go up instead.

The people with the tightest margins raise prices the fastest- and companies with decent markups, like Kurt, can afford to wait a while.

EPAIII · Jun 9, 2019

You guys are going on and on about the cost of steel. A Kurt vise has about the same amount of steel as a Chinese vise, perhaps a bit more, but not a lot. The Chinese companies want their vises to look like the top of the line ones so they can't use a lot less.

So, a Chinese copy of a $500+ Kurt costs, perhaps $150. It must be cast, machined, assembled, painted, etc., just like the Kurt (well, perhaps not as well). Then it must be shipped half way around the world. And the importers add their percentages: 25%, 35%, 50%, or even more. They have kids in college, after all.

So, just how much is the cost of the steel in either the Chinese or Kurt vise? I would guess, at wholesale prices, not what you and I pay, perhaps $25. And that is probably on the high side. So a 4% tariff on that would be exactly $1.

One dollar more for the raw materials to make a Kurt vise in the USA. ONE DOLLAR! That is what the 4% tariff adds to it. Even if you have a 100% mark-up on that extra dollar, it couldn't come to more than $2.00. A Kurt vise that sells for over $500 now costs an extra $2 to manufacturer. That is only a 0.4% increase. Sales and distribution costs have not changed. Only that one small factor in the manufacturing budget.

Am I wrong? Show me where. Are the Kurt vises actually made in the US? If they are imported, that would explain a lot. But I think what you are seeing here is GREED! They see a chance to charge more and they are running with it. You know what they say when it is inevitable, just try to lie back and enjoy it.

triumph406 · Jun 9, 2019

EPAIII said:
Am I wrong? Show me where. Are the Kurt vises actually made in the US? If they are imported, that would explain a lot. But I think what you are seeing here is GREED! They see a chance to charge more and they are running with it. You know what they say when it is inevitable, just try to lie back and enjoy it.

You equate adding 4% to be greedy, what planet do you live on?

I know as of a couple of years ago the Kurts were cast in the US, and I haven't seen anything to suggest they arenn't still cast in the US. I had a conversation with somebody from Kurt who said the casting was done in the US, but they were finding it difficult to find foundaries able to do their work after a lot of the foundaries had closed down.

If they had moved the casting overseas, I would expect by now some dipshit would have announced that to the world.

triumph406 · Jun 9, 2019

Bubba73 said:
Was thinking of picking up a their small KTR 35 tool room vise. However not sure why if Kurt is made in America why they have added 4% for tariffs is confusing. Unless the steel comes from china or elsewhere. Anyone know the real deal?
Says on their site they have added 4% to all orders.

Stop whining, either buy the vise, or buy a vise from somebody else, coming here to complain about 4% is being petty. I don't go whining when gas (petrol) goes up by 4% or more, I just continue to drive.

Are you sure you really need a Kurt on your Tormach?

Bubba73 · Jun 9, 2019

triumph406 said:
Stop whining, either buy the vise, or buy a vise from somebody else, coming here to complain about 4% is being petty. I don't go whining when gas (petrol) goes up by 4% or more, I just continue to drive.

Are you sure you really need a Kurt on your Tormach?

I see it didn't take long for a answer to my question from a typical mouth breather. Tormach??? I don't have a Tormach. I guess everyone can get ready for your reply. No doubt will be,,,If you don't have a machine like mine then it's not a real machine.

Kurt adding 4% for tariffs ???

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