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Lagun FTV-1.....Rebuild, Repair or buy a new/used replacement???

praff

Aluminum
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
I have spent some time searching the forums and can't really find a good thread that speaks to this, so I will ask. I am truly looking for good solid opinions on this and apologize if it is a re-hashed question. Also, it appeared as if the general forum was a better place for this than the reconditioning/scraping forum, but moderators feel free to move the thread if that isn't the case.

So I have a mid 80's vintage Lagun FTV-1 that I have about 1k in. It has a new DRO and otherwise is getting very worn. Ways are worn to the point the scraping is gone in the middle. The gibs are out of adjustment and it is starting to get easier and easier to move table almost to the point I am getting afraid of climb milling. The head is slightly noisy only when adjusting speed, but not horrible. The table is in average used condition with dents and such, but no milling or drilling holes. I use this every day I am in the shop (30-50hrs per week) building 1911/2011 pistols.

It has served me well for what I have in it and I really like the mill. The one requirement here is that I don't have time to take on a two week or longer project. I work full time and run the shop almost full time on my days off. I have no problem spending money on this as it is a necessity for my business. My question is, should I:

1. Keep the mill and have it professionally rebuilt/re-conditioned. (I have a small cnc I can use while it's gone)
2. Just replace leadscrews/nuts and fab new gibs and take my chances on the head.
3. Scrap/sell/trade in the Lagun and buy a new Sharp.
4. Scrap/sell the Lagun and look for a good used mill (every machine I own was bought used).


Just curious what the experienced folks on the forum have to say. Thanks in advance.
 
I have had a Lagun for over 25 years, flogged when I bought it, but I cleaned it up and kept it oiled and it has been solid forever. Really don't use it like you do, but back when I did, it was right on the numbers perfect. Head always quiet for a varispeed.

I never 'liked' the machine because it is giant and heavy and lacks feel, but i could not argue with the accuracy. Had not trammed the head for a decade till I ran the quill into the side of the vise and actually knocked it out.

I would look to see if parts are available for reasonable cost. If nuts screws and gibs could be had, it would probably be the cheapest course of action.

I cannot see grinding it, they don't go for much

I always liked the Sharps I ran back in the day.
 
Lagun is MIGHTY proud of their parts, so be prepared to spend an arm and a leg.

TBH I think option 2 needs to be stricken from the record. Replacing those two things wont do anything to help. With your ways being shot, putting in a new gib isnt gonna fix anything.

Option 1 is gonna be VERY expensive for waywork and head rebuild, you are looking probably about $10k give or take. We just did a Lagun head that was north of $3k for just the head rebuild.

I think the bad part about options 3 and 4 is that you probably arent gonna get much for your mill by selling it.


Jon
H&W Machine Repair
 
Lead screw nuts are adjustable, so are gibs. Maybe they'll bind at the ends when you try to use the full travel of the table, but I bet most of your work is done within the center 12 inches.

If the wear can't be adjusted out I'd look for a replacement machine. Rebuilding is labor intensive and priced accordingly.
 
What is best for you depends on YOU. My first mill was a worn out Millport, the ways were what you describe on yours. On top of tearing it mostly down for a thorough clean and lube I scraped on the high spots till the movement felt good, no flats or help aligning it. I had never scraped before and didn't really know what I was doing. I used that mill to make my first plastic injection mold in my own shop. The 14" x 16" plates were within .0005" in thickness along all the edges so I figured that was good enough, and X and Y were square.

If you fuss with yours a little with a scraper and just remove some of the high spots you might find your mill is good enough for your needs. Beyond that it sounds like you should just buy another machine that is in the condition you want.
 
Sounds like you have had your 1k worth out of it.

Ultimately machine tools are consumables to be destroyed, either literally or just worn to the point where they can't hold sufficiently tight tolerances, for the value of the work they have produced.

Time to either:-

move on and get a "new to you" machine of appropriate accuracy, projected lifetime in your shop and cost given the financial constraints of your business.

or

pony up for a proper rebuild taking it back to a condition where you can just use it for some years without issue or further expense.

Ponying up for a proper re-build normally only makes automatic sense for rare but ideal for you or special purpose machines. For a business like yours it will almost certainly be too costly for what is pretty much a commodity machine where functional, but maybe not quality, equivalents are readily found. Futzing about with partial fixes and keep it going for a while longer is for early start up phase when, of necessity every $ (£ for me) has to do the work of 5 and figuring out how to get 40 hours work from the standard 24 hour day would be highly desirable. Sounds like you are past that.

You mention that you have a CNC so $64,000 question is why do you need a manual mill?

Clive
 
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Lagun is MIGHTY proud of their parts, so be prepared to spend an arm and a leg.

TBH I think option 2 needs to be stricken from the record. Replacing those two things wont do anything to help. With your ways being shot, putting in a new gib isnt gonna fix anything.

Option 1 is gonna be VERY expensive for waywork and head rebuild, you are looking probably about $10k give or take. We just did a Lagun head that was north of $3k for just the head rebuild.

I think the bad part about options 3 and 4 is that you probably arent gonna get much for your mill by selling it.


Jon
H&W Machine Repair

Jon,

I have looked at your site and would have likely had you do the rebuild if I were to go that route. Thanks for the advice on the taking #2 out if the equation. As for #3 and #4, i’m not too worried about what i get out of the machine as it has paid for itself over the last 4years for sure. I will throw it on craigslist and sell it for 500bux without the dro and someone will snatch it up.

It is so hard to find used machines in great shape and when you do, it seems as if people want more than they are worth. I am really leaning towards just buying a new sharp or equivalent taiwanese machine. I’m prepared to spend 8-10k. When i’m done with it in 20years it will still be like new and have some value left.

Appreciate the input.
 
Sounds like you have had your 1k worth out of it.

Ultimately machine tools are consumables to be destroyed, either literally or just worn to the point where they can't hold sufficiently tight tolerances, for the value of the work they have produced.

Time to either:-

move on and get a "new to you" machine of appropriate accuracy, projected lifetime in your shop and cost given the financial constraints of your business.

or

pony up for a proper rebuild taking it back to a condition where you can just use it for some years without issue or further expense.

Ponying up for a proper re-build normally only makes automatic sense for rare but ideal for you or special purpose machines. For a business like yours it will almost certainly be too costly for what is pretty much a commodity machine where functional, but maybe not quality, equivalents are readily found. Futzing about with partial fixes and keep it going for a while longer is for early start up phase when, of necessity every $ (£ for me) has to do the work of 5 and figuring out how to get 40 hours work from the standard 24 hour day would be highly desirable. Sounds like you are past that.

You mention that you have a CNC so $64,000 question is why do you need a manual mill?

Clive

Clive there are a lot of adjustments and small operations that i perform that are just easiser to set up and perform on a manual mill. Also, my little cnc is only 1.5hp and not the most rigid machine so there are a couple cuts it just wont do. A .375” wide and .125” deep blind dovetail cut is one. It just doesnt have enough balls to keep the cutter doing its thing. I broke 3 cutters before i realized it wasn’t the wrong feed n speeds, it was the machine.
 
Hi praff:
Have you considered getting a really high end used machine like a Deckel FP1 or FP2 and maybe rebuilding that?
Expensive for sure, but you'd have a solid accurate machine for life, and when you want to sell it, it holds its value well.

If you're building and modifying gun parts an FP1 would be more than adequate, and if you get the universal table for it, there's not much you cannot set up easily with it.
They also have the most complete accessory line known to man.
Once you get past the bassackward "European" way of toolroom milling (you normally stand behind the machine on the left side), they're pretty sweet to use, and for 10K you could probably pick up something pretty nice.

An FP1 is only 1600 lb, can be stripped down into pieces small enough to go down the basement stairs, and if you re-motor it for 220 single phase they're super desirable for hobbyists because you can plug them into the dryer circuit in the house, so if you ever want to sell it...

I have a Sharp and an FP1...the Deckel is the better machine.

Food for thought!

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
Hi praff:
Have you considered getting a really high end used machine like a Deckel FP1 or FP2 and maybe rebuilding that?
Expensive for sure, but you'd have a solid accurate machine for life, and when you want to sell it, it holds its value well.

If you're building and modifying gun parts an FP1 would be more than adequate, and if you get the universal table for it, there's not much you cannot set up easily with it.
They also have the most complete accessory line known to man.
Once you get past the bassackward "European" way of toolroom milling (you normally stand behind the machine on the left side), they're pretty sweet to use, and for 10K you could probably pick up something pretty nice.

An FP1 is only 1600 lb, can be stripped down into pieces small enough to go down the basement stairs, and if you re-motor it for 220 single phase they're super desirable for hobbyists because you can plug them into the dryer circuit in the house, so if you ever want to sell it...

I have a Sharp and an FP1...the Deckel is the better machine.

Food for thought!

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

Marcus...

The Deckel's look like a suuuuuuuuuuper nice machine. While I have never had the pleasure to run one, I do see some work by a colleague that has one. It looks impressive. The problem I would imagine is finding one that is close enough to be worth going after. The other issue would be the tooling investment to switch everything over from R-8. I do like them, but I'm not sure it would be the right thing for me right now unless I found one with a bunch of tooling and was ready to hit the ground running when I brought it to the shop.
 
Marcus...

The Deckel's look like a suuuuuuuuuuper nice machine. While I have never had the pleasure to run one, I do see some work by a colleague that has one. It looks impressive. The problem I would imagine is finding one that is close enough to be worth going after. The other issue would be the tooling investment to switch everything over from R-8. I do like them, but I'm not sure it would be the right thing for me right now unless I found one with a bunch of tooling and was ready to hit the ground running when I brought it to the shop.

Personally I'd sell all the R8 tooling and buy a machine with a 30 or far preferably 40 taper spindle.

There's no real point in getting a new and more rigid machine with a feeble tool holding setup. If you're going to buy a new machine, get one with a decent taper quill.

FWIW I have both and I'll take the 40 taper any day of the week. Next time I sell a mill, it'll be the B/port with the R8 taper that's going out the door.

PDW
 
Personally I'd sell all the R8 tooling and buy a machine with a 30 or far preferably 40 taper spindle.

There's no real point in getting a new and more rigid machine with a feeble tool holding setup. If you're going to buy a new machine, get one with a decent taper quill.

FWIW I have both and I'll take the 40 taper any day of the week. Next time I sell a mill, it'll be the B/port with the R8 taper that's going out the door.

PDW

Couldn't agree more. Once you've used taper 40, R8 is a bad joke.

Its easy to spend someone else's money. I was in your boat a few years back. moved the old machine to the back of the shop for a glorified drill press and the rare occasion quick'n'dirty job. it wasn't worth much anyway.

I was lucky. Found a cherry supermax with 5hp spindle, taper 40, power feed all axis, horizontal spindle. It did take quite a bit of searching but cherry machines are out there.

I got two CNC mills, but many things just need a manual machine. especially while you are just watch a CNC run.
 
Couldn't agree more. Once you've used taper 40, R8 is a bad joke.

Its easy to spend someone else's money. I was in your boat a few years back. moved the old machine to the back of the shop for a glorified drill press and the rare occasion quick'n'dirty job. it wasn't worth much anyway.

I was lucky. Found a cherry supermax with 5hp spindle, taper 40, power feed all axis, horizontal spindle. It did take quite a bit of searching but cherry machines are out there.

I got two CNC mills, but many things just need a manual machine. especially while you are just watch a CNC run.

Yes I suppose I would be open to taper 40. I really don't have that much tooling in R8 and could sell what I do have. I am sure there are plenty of used holders and such out there as well.
 
Couldn't agree more. Once you've used taper 40, R8 is a bad joke.

Its easy to spend someone else's money. I was in your boat a few years back. moved the old machine to the back of the shop for a glorified drill press and the rare occasion quick'n'dirty job. it wasn't worth much anyway.

That's basically what I use my B/port for. Plus it makes a pretty fair wood router with 4 flute carbide end mills.....

PDW
 








 
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