Lathe clutch

AndyH · Dec 12, 2021

Hi guys
It's been a while since I've been on here. And if this question is in the wrong area I apologize. So I have a Lagun Turnmaster 15".
It has a matrix clutch buried deep inside the head stock. Since owning the lathe the clutch will not support using the two highest speed settings. The chuck will never get up to speed but seems to work fine using the other speed options. I looked into buying a new clutch and was given a quote of almost $4000. I removed the clutch a few years ago and examined it, cleaned it up and rearranged the plates hoping it would help. It did help with forward but took away from reverse. I did and know how to adjust the clutch through the inspection plate on the back of the headstock but nothing gets it to the point of where it should be. So I removed it again this morning and looked at it again. The plates are copper and steel from what I can tell with them alternating in the pack. Copper, steel, copper, steel etc... There is no pattern on either of the plates telling me there was any different material that was there and just worn away. The plates do not looked burned and are quite smooth. So how the heck do these grab each other. This may sound stupid but I was thinking on scuffing the plates up with sand paper thinking that may help. Does anyone have any knowledge of this type of clutch? What should the plates look like?

pat pounden · Dec 12, 2021

are you positive those "copper" didn't originally have a friction facing?

AndyH · Dec 12, 2021

I'm not. But I would think I would see signs of something somewhere on at least one of the plates. That's whats got me confused.

kustomizer · Dec 12, 2021

I made new ones for a friend from a bronze material in the waterjet, they were only a few thousandths thicker than the old ones but it made it work again, he got the material from MSC in 12" square pcs

AndyH · Dec 12, 2021

That’s interesting. So you made bronze in place of the copper? And with steel between?

kustomizer · Dec 12, 2021

Yes, we reused the steel ones, he chucked them up in a little lathe and lightly scuffed them with a flap wheel and we made the bronze plates, are you sure yours are copper? Perhaps heat colored from slipping to look like copper

beckerkumm · Dec 12, 2021

Looks like my ZC25 Matrix. What are dimensions of plates? Those matrix are fussy and a couple of clicks is the difference between working and not seeming to be close to right. The smooth face were used on machines where you could feather the engagement vs the rough cross hatched plates Colchester used on their Matrix clutches. How do the bronze " gluts " look? Mine was badly worn on one side so it could not be pushed far enough to click in and yet spring back so it didn't continue to push against the plates.

I doubt there is enough wear on the copper to cause the clutch not to work. I think there is a thread here on the matrix on my Smart Brown 1024 that may help some. I did get the clutch sorted out and there are some of the cross hatched plates available on ebay uk. Original Matrix parts are still partially available if you have a child for sale.

Dave

AndyH · Dec 12, 2021

I’m almost 100% sure. I did scratch them to see if it was a coating but looked copper through. They are slightly bendable. Both sides of all the plates are the same. There’s not one or two that stick out as being worn any differently.

beckerkumm · Dec 12, 2021

If I remember right, the plates ( copper or bronze ) measured .058-.064 in thickness. They will be the same surface on both sides, smooth to fully engage after a few revolutions or rough to engage immediately. Since yours is forward - reverse rather than two speed like mine, you want the smooth. Let me know if yours measure much thinner than my numbers. I may have a couple extra. Dave

Tyrone Shoelaces · Dec 13, 2021

Another vote for those clutches being “ Matrix “. Beckerkumm has it right. Lots of machine tools used those clutches in the UK. If it was on a lathe I used to swap the complete “ reverse” clutch for the “ forward “ clutch. Normally “ forward “ gets used all the time,” reverse “ not so often. The setting of those clutches has to be just right. They need to engage with a satisfying “ click “.

Regards Tyrone.

AndyH · Dec 13, 2021

Thanks for the replies everyone. I measured the plates this morning and found the copper looking ones measure .063. The steel.062. So from the info you all supplied there is very little wear which is a good thing. The steel plates look extremely polished. So I think Ill try and scuff the surface and see what happens. Like I said before. Ive played around with the adjustments on the clutch quite a bit. I could tell if it was to loose and also to tight. And it didnt take much of moving the ring. Ill keep you all posted how it turns out. If all I need to do is touch up what I have that would be great. Thanks a bunch.

beckerkumm · Dec 13, 2021

The adjustment between too loose and too tight can be one or two teeth on the knurled ring. Dave

AndyH · Dec 13, 2021

beckerkumm said:
The adjustment between too loose and too tight can be one or two teeth on the knurled ring. Dave

Thanks Dave
I realize that. When I was doing the adjustments I was only doing one or two clicks at a time. Nothing seemed to get it at that sweet spot. The speed I was using while making the adjustments was around 1000 I’m thinking. When I thought I was there I tried a to 1600 and 2000. Nothing I did would get the chuck up to those speeds. Thanks for responding I appreciate it.

BT Fabrication · Dec 13, 2021

how is the handle adjustment for the linkages? there are a few things to adjust on these mechanical clutches, and most are pretty tight fitting. scuffing the plates might help, it depends if the spring to push them back apart has enough length and not squshed down also. lots of moving parts to wear.

beckerkumm · Dec 13, 2021

Do you feel the clutch click in ? When I adjust, I first adjust while stopped, then engage the gear while running slow enough I can put my hand on the chuck and see if I can stop it. If I can, I know the plates are not fully engaged as my motor has enough torque that it can't be slowed by me. If the lever on my clutch takes much force to click in, the plates are typically too tight. Since you aren't getting up to speed, that shouldn't be the problem. When you pull the knurled ring, does it click out and then when you adjust, do you click it back in? There are a lot of clicks going on. The adjustment rings click as does the linkage. I can reach into my clutch box and push the center hub by hand in either direction to test the click on the linkage. Did you verify that the bronze gluts are not worn? If they look like mine in the earlier picture, they won't engage the plates enough to click as they don't reach far enough to push the center part in the direction of the wear. The reverse side should still be good as that doesn't get used much. More pictures might help. Dave

AndyH · Dec 15, 2021

Well I got it all together and works like new. I cant believe all I had to do is rough up the plates. Im so thrilled because a week ago I was thinking I was in a position of either dealing with it or spending almost $4000 for a new clutch. After taking the clutch out I took it apart further to remove all the plates. I scuffed both plates ( steel, copper) up with 100 grit sand paper. I measured them after and got the same reading. I was afraid of removing to much material but I took a lot to remove the shiny finish down to the dull I was looking for. Washed everything up and put it back together. I think the next thing I want to do is put in a filter off the pump to filter the head oil. Thanks guys for helping me out. Much appreciated.

beckerkumm · Dec 15, 2021

Thanks, I learned something too. I may psych up and take mine out and rough up the plates a little as see if I can back off the pressure slightly. I assume your clutch is a wet system. I wonder if there is a preference from Matrix as to whether the steel, Dave

dian · Dec 19, 2021

what oil are you using?

beckerkumm · Dec 19, 2021

Looks like I forgot to finish my question above regarding roughing the steel vs the phosphor bronze.

My Smart Brown uses DTE Light but that is more due to the spindle bearings and size of delivery nozzles. My lathe uses the Matrix as the oil reservior for the entire headstock and gearbox. Dave

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