tooling up a new machine

empower · Oct 29, 2019

Hey guys, we're expecting arrival of our new Haas UMC50SS in a few weeks. whats the deal with tooling certificates, how do we go about getting the best bang for the buck? which MFG's have the best deal/quality? really just looking for any tips/suggestions on this topic.
50 tool side mount changer, TSC, coolant management, TAB.
Thanks all.

Rick Finsta · Oct 30, 2019

Look into the different arrangements out there and ask your tooling company (not just the machine tool dealer). I bought mostly certificates which are basically an unknown discount (generally not itemized as an exact cost on the quote, but reportedly 20-40% off list). There is another kind that gets you something like 50% off list up to a certain percentage of the machine cost but you have to spend that within so many months of purchase (usually a year in my limited experience) but you don't have to pay up front, it is more like line of credit (if that makes sense). Different companies (Sandvik vs Kennametal, for instance) have slightly different arrangements as well, but all in the same ballpark as far as discount goes.

I will tell you this - getting a Sandvik certificate introduced my to the area Sandvik rep who gives me the most timely and thorough tooling application support of anyone I've dealt with. I learned the Kennametal guy around here is a total dud.

YMMV but for sure ask about these things before you finalize your purchase order.

Mike1974 · Oct 30, 2019

empwoer said:
Hey guys, we're expecting arrival of our new Haas UMC50SS in a few weeks. whats the deal with tooling certificates, how do we go about getting the best bang for the buck? which MFG's have the best deal/quality? really just looking for any tips/suggestions on this topic.
50 tool side mount changer, TSC, coolant management, TAB.
Thanks all.

I like Techniks tooling. Techniks CNC Machine Tooling | Tool Holding

Their keyless drill chucks are really damn nice. I know some people don't like drill chucks in a cnc, but I've never personally had a problem using them. I also like the Bohrstar kits for precision boring, verneir (sp?) dial to tenths and very repeatable, although kind of spendy.

Lots of people here swear by maritool Tool Holders, Collets and Machine Accessories - MariTool as well, although I have no first hand knowledge of their tools.

edit: With a 5 ax I would also be looking at these from Techniks - Techniks CNC Machine Tooling | CAT 40/50 Holders - SlimFIT They were a must have when I was programming/setting up a UMC750.

as9100d · Oct 30, 2019

What Mike said above is good, make sure you get long holders. You're going to need the reach.

4-8" long er11, er16 for those very tight spots.

If you have the budget, look at the big Kaiser tool holders. We are slowly moving to big Kaiser and shunk for our workholding needs at my shop.

The big Kaiser stuff is pricey, but the quality is probably the best I have ever seen. They do have we holders as well as their own collet type.

Milland · Oct 30, 2019

If you can, focus on risers for the workholding over extra-long toolholders. With wimpy Haas spindle stiffness, you're going to be ahead on cutter stability if you can keep stickout short.

Won't work for all parts, but sticking to the "high work, short cutter" strategy where possible will be beneficial.

as9100d · Oct 30, 2019

Agree^

Really need to raise the work up and have a wide mix of long holders.

empower · Oct 30, 2019

thanks fellas! plan is to use a 5th axis or similar triple pyramid with 3 vises to raise the parts up from the table.

so these certificates are acquired through the haas dealer?

as9100d · Oct 30, 2019

Don't buy those certificates. Big waste of money.

empower · Oct 30, 2019

as9100d said:
Don't buy those certificates. Big waste of money.

i'm confused, can you explain why?

Mike1974 · Oct 30, 2019

Milland said:
If you can, focus on risers for the workholding over extra-long toolholders. With wimpy Haas spindle stiffness, you're going to be ahead on cutter stability if you can keep stickout short.

Won't work for all parts, but sticking to the "high work, short cutter" strategy where possible will be beneficial.

1) Even the "Haas wimpy spindle" is perfectly fine for those extended reach tools considering the ones I linked are limited to 1/4" max collets.
2) Beefy spindle or not, hang a 1/2"-3/4" endmill out 5-6-8" and you are going to work at getting a good cut
3) Raising the work up is fine, for stuff at AC 0. but when you rotate that trunnion over 90 or 100deg, you still need long ass tools to clear the table.

On the UMC750 it had a big table, which was great from a pure real estate perspective, I could get 2 Kurt D688 on the table and still get my C a full 360". Big table not so good when you need A at 90deg, or getting close to/over that. Whole lot of clearance issues then pop up.

empower · Oct 30, 2019

Mike1974 said:
1) Even the "Haas wimpy spindle" is perfectly fine for those extended reach tools considering the ones I linked are limited to 1/4" max collets.
2) Beefy spindle or not, hang a 1/2"-3/4" endmill out 5-6-8" and you are going to work at getting a good cut
3) Raising the work up is fine, for stuff at AC 0. but when you rotate that trunnion over 90 or 100deg, you still need long ass tools to clear the table.

On the UMC750 it had a big table, which was great from a pure real estate perspective, I could get 2 Kurt D688 on the table and still get my C a full 360". Big table not so good when you need A at 90deg, or getting close to/over that. Whole lot of clearance issues then pop up.

i believe what he's saying is, the further you space your work out from the table, the more room you'll have in X when your A is tilted 90*

Mike1974 · Oct 30, 2019

empwoer said:
i believe what he's saying is, the further you space your work out from the table, the more room you'll have in X when your A is tilted 90*

Definitely. I ran a 5 axis vise with the riser made for that machine, I think it stacked up to about 7" or so. Still had to carefully check machine sim and clearances. Also, the more you are up in Z, it does buy you room in X, but at a loss of stability in your part/clamping setup IMO, unless maybe it was screwed down to a fixture plate?

as9100d · Oct 30, 2019

empwoer said:
i'm confused, can you explain why?

The way the certs work is you pre-pay for tooling and roll it into the cost of your loan if you have one. They will typically say 25-50% discount but this is on FULL LIST PRICE. You never buy tooling at full list price from your tooling supplier as long as you are a shrewd negotiator. You should be by now in this phase of business.....

Tool suppliers usually will have tooling package deals from time to time also and some can get strings pulled for you from say techniks, big kaiser, shunk, etc. "not to discount mari-tool, those are fantastic usa made tools, I just dont happen to have many in my shop because im pushing for big kaiser exclusively in my shop... Look into maritool!

so to recap, you add a 25-50% discount (usually not 50%) certificate that you have to prepay via your machine loan and that discount is gone after the 5 years of the loan. You would be better off just buying your tooling outright from a supplier without the stupid certificate thats only a discount off full list price (those prices are insane and you will never pay that ever)

Rick Finsta · Oct 30, 2019

What as9100d is saying is what I was trying to get across. The certificates are something you use to roll it into the financing and don't really know what it costs. Otherwise there are other options out there sometimes directly with a broad spectrum tooling supply house rather than a single manufacturer. Talk to the salesman and your tooling provider to see what is out there.

empower · Oct 30, 2019

as9100d said:
The way the certs work is you pre-pay for tooling and roll it into the cost of your loan if you have one. They will typically say 25-50% discount but this is on FULL LIST PRICE. You never buy tooling at full list price from your tooling supplier as long as you are a shrewd negotiator. You should be by now in this phase of business.....

Tool suppliers usually will have tooling package deals from time to time also and some can get strings pulled for you from say techniks, big kaiser, shunk, etc. "not to discount mari-tool, those are fantastic usa made tools, I just dont happen to have many in my shop because im pushing for big kaiser exclusively in my shop... Look into maritool!

so to recap, you add a 25-50% discount (usually not 50%) certificate that you have to prepay via your machine loan and that discount is gone after the 5 years of the loan. You would be better off just buying your tooling outright from a supplier without the stupid certificate thats only a discount off full list price (those prices are insane and you will never pay that ever)

perfect, thats exactly the explanation i was looking for, thanks!

i think maritool is on here ya?

fmari --MariTool- · Oct 30, 2019

as9100d,
thank you for the kind words.

empwoer,
I look forward to working with you.

Yes from time to time we offer tooling certificates. We try to avoid it. generally this is how it goes. Customer is pushed a Sandvik or Kennametal cert. Normally they get 30-40 point on it. Customer says they want MariTool. Dealer still tries to sell Sandvik or Kennametal (cause we only give 10 points). Finally Dealer contacts us and we offer 10 points on a cert that the sell. Thats about the most we can offer. Problem is that now the customer can get any discount from us, that was given to the dealer. Coupon codes or promotions cannot be combined with tooling certificates. I would much rather just sell direct to the customer, but sometimes money and financing dictate reality.

empower · Oct 30, 2019

fmari --MariTool- said:
as9100d,
thank you for the kind words.

empwoer,
I look forward to working with you.

Yes from time to time we offer tooling certificates. We try to avoid it. generally this is how it goes. Customer is pushed a Sandvik or Kennametal cert. Normally they get 30-40 point on it. Customer says they want MariTool. Dealer still tries to sell Sandvik or Kennametal (cause we only give 10 points). Finally Dealer contacts us and we offer 10 points on a cert that the sell. Thats about the most we can offer. Problem is that now the customer can get any discount from us, that was given to the dealer. Coupon codes or promotions cannot be combined with tooling certificates. I would much rather just sell direct to the customer, but sometimes money and financing dictate reality.

gotcha! whats your email?

fmari --MariTool- · Oct 30, 2019

I sent you a DM. Thank you.

as9100d · Oct 30, 2019

Maritool holders really are great. I say we dont have many but we probably have close to 60 maritool holders. I have zero complaints about them.

Rick Finsta · Oct 30, 2019

My only complaint with Maritool is at my last shop I had to pry the credit card out of the controller's death grip whenever we needed to order since they don't do term accounts. Now that I'm on my own I kinda subscribe to the "if Maritool is an option, Maritool is the answer" mentality.

tooling up a new machine

Titanium

Stainless

Diamond

Stainless

Diamond

Stainless

Titanium

Stainless

Titanium

Diamond

Titanium

Diamond

Stainless

Stainless

Titanium

Titanium

Titanium

Titanium

Stainless

Stainless

Similar threads