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Leveling the bed on my south bend model 9A

Hustlerkc42

Plastic
Joined
Oct 15, 2020
So any help would be greatly appreciated, im try to take the twist out of the bed of my lathe and im using a machinist level which I've made sure the level itself is adjusted correctly first. Here's where I get confused, when I put the level say at the end of the lathe (tail stock) end and let's say the right side of the bubble is lined up with the mark on the left side just as an example... when I flip the level 180° the bubble is now on the opposite side at the same mark. So let's say the left side of the bed is a hair higher, flipping the level around I wouldn't think the side the bubble goes to should change because the left side is still higher so how is the bube moving to the opposite side when turned 180? Thanks in advance for any help.
 
you should see the same result on the level if it is adjusted/calibrated

the 2 points you set the level on have to be the same each time.
AND clean
 
My precision level, as are probably all of them, is adjustable. One end will have a thumb wheel to calibrate the level. If it is giving you wonky readings then it is probably not calibrated. That being said, it's hard to put a bad twist in an SB9. They are pretty rigid. There are plenty of reasons (set ups for one thing) where you want the lathe to be level however. I think more people put a twist in a small SB by honking down on the pedestal feet rather then having a real live twist in the bed.
 
I know its crazy right, if I used my mill table as my spot to calibrate the level I can flip the level 180 as many times as I want and it'll read the same in both directions every time but not if I place it on the ways... and im making sure I'm putting it in the same exact spot. I even slightly stoned the ways just to remove any burs or high spots. I'm truly lost right now.
 
You might get some help on the SB forum (where this should actually be, although it would pertain to any small bench top lathe). I assume you have checked diagonally. You say you have been putting the level exactly in the same spot. A precision level is just that, precise. If you have a diagonal twist then even the slightest deviation across the ways is going to throw your readings off.
 
First, you must ZERO your level. This is a zeroing, NOT a calibration. A calibration would be to set the sensitivity to a certain number. That number would be an angular amount or amount of linear difference between the two sides that is indicated by the distance between the lines on the vial. I have never seen a vial level that can be calibrated: perhaps electronic ones can but I do not have any experience with them. All levels can be ZEROED.

Next, you said a "machinists level". There are different machinist levels and they have different sensitivities. The most sensitive ones will show a stated number of ten thousandths they will detect over a distance of one foot (or some say per ten inches). Others are only able to show thousandths over that distance. To really level a lathe, you will need the style that shows ten thousandths. You can get it close with a thousandth reading level but you will need to do more additional work to be sure the bed is not twisted. It would be helpful in this discussion to know the sensitivity of your level.

PREPARE THE BENCH & LATHE:

The next thing is what type of floor is your lathe bench sitting on? If it is a wood floor, you can stop now as you will never achieve tenths with a lathe on a wood floor. It will change more than that just when you shift your position on a stool next to the lathe bench (been there, done that, it really happens). Then, what type of bench is it on? A metal bench is best. I have my SB-9 on a welded steel bench. A very well built wood bench could work, but wood changes over time and you would need to re-level the lathe more often.

Next, your floor is not going to be flat even to a thousandth so your bench MUST sit on the exact, same spots on the floor at all times. The best way to do this is to bolt it to the floor. The feet should have levelers so the bench can be nominally level before you start with the lathe itself. This saves a lot of time and shims.

I would then bolt ONE end of the lathe down with fairly tight bolts and the other end just finger tight. This allows the bed to assume it's own preferred position. Only after getting to this place in the overall procedure can you even try to ZERO your level. The SB-9 has a flat way on the bed and this is probably the best place to zero your level, not across the ways. Remove the tail stock and do a good job of cleaning this flat way. If tenths count, then you will need to place the level on the EXACT same spot on this way so you should use something, like the carriage, to set the level against. Your level should have a second vial to show that it is roughly level in the cross direction. Use that vial while reversing the level to ensure that the lathe bed is approximately level from front to back while the level is in position on the flat way. If needed, add some shims under the front or rear feet of the lathe to achieve this.

ZERO THE LEVEL:

Finally you have a repeatable surface to sit it on and are ready to ZERO your level. Place the level on the flat way and with one end against the carriage. Observe the position of the bubble. If the bubble is off one end, you will need to add some shims under one end of the lathe to bring it into sight. You are not trying to actually level the lathe yet, just be able to read the bubble. Remember the position of the bubble and reverse the level end-for-end. Again, set it against the carriage so that it sits on the same position on the flat way. Now read the bubble again.

Adjust your level until the bubble is in the same position for both ways the level is sitting on the way. This means that it will be the same distance from the level's center and on the same side of that center in relation to the lathe and the room. But it will be on the opposite side of the level as the level is reversed. When this condition is met, your level is properly ZEROED. Now you can use it to level the lathe.

LEVELING THE LATHE

At this point in time a SB-9 IS a used machine. This means that the rather small, flat tops on the ways may and VERY PROBABLY WILL have some dings in them. Even when this lathe was new, I know of no source that says that they were scraped flat and parallel to the other seven surfaces of the lathe ways. For this reason I have never trusted a level placed on top of those small flats. If you insist on using them, I would strongly recommend stoning them with a ground flat stone first. I would set the stone across the three vee ways and stone all three of them at once. But with my SB-9 I simply used the carriage to ride on the vee ways and placed the level on top of the carriage with the compound removed. Again, the SB-9 is an older machine and the castings have had to warp so check the seating of the level and stone the top surface of the carriage as needed. Mine was so bad that I had to actually scrape it first and then stone it. Another consideration here is the wear on the vee ways. Mine are noticeably worn so the results can not be the same as with a freshly ground and/or scraped set of ways.

Since your level is ZEROED, you can now just place it on and leave it in one place on the top of the carriage. You can carefully move the carriage from one end of the lathe bed to the other and observe the bubble. Start with the head stock end tightened down and the tail stock just finger tight as described above. See which way the bed twists. Add a shim as needed at the tail stock end and repeat the test with all four bolts medium tight. Keep adding shims until you achieve the best level and with all four bolts tight.

FINAL TUNE:

That is as good as you can do with a level but you are not finished. So don't obsess about that last tenth or two. Now the fine tuning starts by using other methods involving measuring on and turning test bars.
 
If you don't feel comfortable trying to zero out your level, you can use it as is, but DO NOT turn it 180 in use. Always have the same end in the same direction, and as long as you see the same reading on the level in each position you've got the twist out. With a lathe it is not so critical to have it "level", as it is to get the twist out. Lathes are installed in ships, subs, and trucks all the time. Milling machines only need to be level for easier setup of work. Having worked in military shop trucks with lathes and mills, you learn to read your level for setup.
 
And why are you moving the level along the lathe bed by hand at all? Think about what your trying to do, your actually trying to get the bed in a single plane along and across it's length with the machine set up and under it's normal operating condition. Using a proper high accuracy machinist's level is just the easiest method of doing so. One of the reasons any bed twist has a measurable effect under cutting conditions on the part is that bed twist either slowly rolls the cutting tool tip into or away from the work piece as the carriage follows any twist that's there. Because of the tool tips elevation ABOVE the bed ways, that rolling movement is magnified. A .001" change in bed twist does not result in only a .001" change on the part diameter and taper. Get your level zeroed while sitting on either the cross slide or compound. Then just use the carriage hand wheel and run it end to end. Just like the lathe tool tip it's then elevated above the bed ways so it's a more accurate and sensitive method because your replicating the conditions closer to what the tool tip will actually be doing. Knowing that a lathe bed needs to be true end to end is only half the requirement of what your trying to do. Fully comprehending what can and does happen at the tool tip with any bed twist is the other half.
 
... trying to get the bed in a single plane along and across it's length with the machine set up and under it's normal operating condition. ..

Which of course should be trivial on a new old stock SB 9A which has been stored in its original cosmoline since its manufacture 50 years ago.

(not this lathe)

So the goal is to tune up a used, worn machine to cut as best it can - which requires levels and lasers and taught wire testers and pools of mercury with contacts dipped in them, of course. No other way to do THAT. Easily.

And the level has to cost more than the lathe itself.
 
Well I didn't expect his lathe to be in perfect unused condition. With any used machine your going to have to make compromises and get it to cut as taper free as possible. And that could also involve putting an actual counter twist into the machine to get it to cut straight.Depending on the actual wear it may not be 100% possible to get it to cut without at least some degree of taper. Used or not that still doesn't change what your trying to do. And with a worn machine using the carriage to move the level would logically be even more important.
 
1) This really belongs in the SB sub-forum.

2) There they'll say a level of any kind is worthless for setting up a small, somewhat worn machine like this.

3) The probable recommendation is to a) sell the fancy level and b) use southbends own two-collar method for setting this machine up.

Requirements for this: micrometer, aluminum stock a foot or so long, about an inch in diameter.
 








 
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