Leveling and tramming VMC

Hey all...I hope you can help me. I’m trying to level and tram my Hurco VM10i VMC. It has 6 leveling feet...2 front, 2 back, and 2 where the head travels along Z (about 16/18 inches in from the rear feet)

I followed the Haas video on leveling a VMC and I can’t seem to get this right.

I calibrate my level (SPI 0.0001 / 10” accuracy level).

I can get the machine level. I can remove the twist. I can remove the bow. But when I sweep my indicator, the machine table is not perpendicular to the spindle axis. Test cuts
Prove this theory. It was cutting well before I started messing with it, so I know that this machine is sound and accurate and not damaged or anything.

It’s a 3yr old machine that sees light use so it’s not a structural issue.

Does anyone have a sure fire method or routine for leveling and tramming a head in? Should I leave the middle screws alone? In fact, what do the middle screws do? They are directly under the Z ways so I would assume they handle head tilt.

For reference, the spindle sweep with a 0.0001 indicator on a 12” dia circle is (after leveling):

X- .0002
X+ .0003
Y+ (operator side) -.0002
Y- spindle side .0008
According to Haas the total delta on all 4 measurements should be less than 0.0005.


I for the life of me cannot get this thing trammed and facing good again. I understand that level is just a starting place for perpendicularity, but I’m lost here.

Please help! I don’t want to call my service tech out again and I specifically bought all these tools to NOT have to always call him. Mainly I am practicing on my 3 axis so that I can align the center lines on my 5 axis when they slip out of place every 6 months.

Thanks for helping a “service noob”

Can I ask - what does the manufacturers installation drawings call for regarding foundations, depth of concrete, bolting to the ground or free standing etc ? Is the machine installed to the makers spec ?
As you say obtaining a perfect level condition isn't the be all and end all. Getting the tram and cutting performance correct is more important.

Regards Tyrone.

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Can I ask - what does the manufacturers installation drawings call for regarding foundations, depth of concrete, bolting to the ground or free standing etc ? Is the machine installed to the makers spec ?
As you say obtaining a perfect level condition isn't the be all and end all. Getting the tram and cutting performance correct is more important.

Regards Tyrone.

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The flooring is about the farthest thing from ideal you can think of. Sitting on like 8" of concrete, topped with linoleum tiles, with a basement underneath. an I beam is running direct under the machine. The floor itself is quite thick and reinforced, but its not even on bedrock so you can feel the cutting in the floor from about 100 feet away sometimes.

Before folks wanna shit on this, it is what it is and it's not by choice. Its alot easier to make a machine work in a laboratory than to build a new laboratory.

regardless of all that, the machine has performed swimmingly for 3 years. I just wanted to dial it in more and get it true because the floor has settled obviously. The 5 axis counterpart to THIS machine however needs tweaking every 6 months due to the aforementioned issues regarding settling and not being anchored. Again, it is what it is. The fact that that machine even fit in this building is a miracle, but it does cut beautiful parts WHEN it is properly aligned.

Hence, I purchased the requisite gauges and tools for dialing that machine in instead of paying my tech 3k/yr every year for the next 15 years.

Tyrone, they call for the 5 axis to be anchored and the 3 axis can be freestanding

The middle pair of screws should permit you to tilt the main column slightly forward or back. Since it appears that the majority of your error is in Y, this should work out well for what you measured. Level is a good starting point, but it is not the be all, end all. Twist that bed!

metalmadness said:

Hence, I purchased the requisite gauges and tools for dialing that machine in instead of paying my tech 3k/yr every year for the next 15 years.

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Hurco is getting $3k to send a tech out? When Mazak commissioned my VMC, the tech leveled and trammed the thing in about an hour.

What do you mean when you say ". . . the machine table is not perpendicular to the spindle axis. Test cuts
Prove this theory"? The 1) table surface wants to be parallel to both the X and Y ways, and 2) the spindle axis wants to be perpendicular to the X and Y ways AND table surface.

It's interesting that the midpoint of the along-X tram measurements is offset along Z from the midpoint of the along-Y tram measurements. That might suggest some instability in the structural loop from the table surface to the indicator tip.

John Garner said:

What do you mean when you say ". . . the machine table is not perpendicular to the spindle axis. Test cuts
Prove this theory"? The 1) table surface wants to be parallel to both the X and Y ways, and 2) the spindle axis wants to be perpendicular to the X and Y ways AND table surface.

It's interesting that the midpoint of the along-X tram measurements is offset along Z from the midpoint of the along-Y tram measurements. That might suggest some instability in the structural loop from the table surface to the indicator tip.

Click to expand...

Test cuts show there are some funky a$$ machining lines that werent there before i started this process. and general poor surface quality with a 2" face mill.

I would assume if the cutter was actually perp. to the XY plane, those cuts would look better with no weird blend lines. On a bridgeport this is fixed by tramming the head. My problem is, I can get it level untwisted and unbowed but not "trammed" as in the spindle sweeps are way off. Not crazy off, but 0.001" delta on Y isn't exactly normal.

What do you mean by "instability in the structural loop"? The table is worn or something like that?

HuFlungDung said:

The middle pair of screws should permit you to tilt the main column slightly forward or back. Since it appears that the majority of your error is in Y, this should work out well for what you measured. Level is a good starting point, but it is not the be all, end all. Twist that bed!

Click to expand...

That would be my starting point also. The error appears to be more front to back rather than side to side. Of course if the machine was bolted down it would make life a little bit easier. You could " bend it straight " as we used to say. From my understanding isn't the machine a steel fabrication ? How do you know the column is perfectly aligned with the table top ? I had a good box level and a good 2ft 6inch engineers square plus DTI for checks such as these.

If I understand your readings correctly it would appear that the column is leaning backwards about half a thou in your tram.

If you breathe on the middle jack screws to bring them up slightly away from the ground and breathe on the rear jack screws to bring them down towards the ground you should be going in the right direction. We're talking tiny amounts here. Levelling machinery is not for the guys with a touch like an angry rhino.

Regards Tyrone.

kb0thn said:

Hurco is getting $3k to send a tech out? When Mazak commissioned my VMC, the tech leveled and trammed the thing in about an hour.

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No they don;'t charge 3k but its about 800 each time they level and run centerline compensation, assuming theres nothing else i need them to look at. Travel cost ain't cheap and the guy's an hr each way away frpm us

2-3x per year this happens

EDIT: this service is for the 5 axis not my 3 which is what this discussion is about. Im trying to do the 5axis compensation myself moving forward

HuFlungDung said:

The middle pair of screws should permit you to tilt the main column slightly forward or back. Since it appears that the majority of your error is in Y, this should work out well for what you measured. Level is a good starting point, but it is not the be all, end all. Twist that bed!

Click to expand...

TWIST THE BED? My understanding is you want to remove twist not reintroduce structural twist or bow intentionally haha! I understand the casting ain't on a flat plane like the factory so you need to comp for that by adjusting the casting. But wouldn't that throw off the table when it travels through Y while machining?

HuFlungDung said:

The middle pair of screws should permit you to tilt the main column slightly forward or back. Since it appears that the majority of your error is in Y, this should work out well for what you measured. Level is a good starting point, but it is not the be all, end all. Twist that bed!

Click to expand...

Middle screws directly under Z travel/ways. Thus tightening the mid screws would tilt the column back, loosening would lean the column forward correct?

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

That would be my starting point also. The error appears to be more front to back rather than side to side. Of course if the machine was bolted down it would make life a little bit easier. You could " bend it straight " as we used to say. From my understanding isn't the machine a steel fabrication ? How do you know the column is perfectly aligned with the table top ? I had a good box level and a good 2ft 6inch engineers square plus DTI for checks such as these.

If I understand your readings correctly it would appear that the column is leaning backwards about half a thou in your tram.

If you breathe on the middle jack screws to bring them up slightly away from the ground and breathe on the rear jack screws to bring them down towards the ground you should be going in the right direction. We're talking tiny amounts here. Levelling machinery is not for the guys with a touch like an angry rhino.

Regards Tyrone.

Click to expand...

Yes Tyrone, ignore my previous post I missed part of this explanation. Ive been doing microadjustments which sucks. Basically you can't even see the screws moving.

Wether it sucks or not small adjustments is the way to go. Take your time, don't get stressed and avoid the temptation to keep levelling up and up. If the machine was bolted down I'd level the table ways first. Pull the holding down bolts down tight then bend/pivot the rear end of the base to get the column plumb to the table ways using the rear jack screws/holding down bolts.

I used to set large Hor bores up on my own, you had to have a feeling for how much large castings move. How much will the DTI move on the 4 ft square if you give the ring spanner one British Standard Wallop with your dead blow hammer when you're hitting a Jack screw ten feet away from the square. The sort of machine that has 32 Jack screws and holding down bolts to go at.

All the best with it, you're already very near. Tyrone.

Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Wether it sucks or not small adjustments is the way to go. Take your time, don't get stressed and avoid the temptation to keep levelling up and up. If the machine was bolted down I'd level the table ways first. Pull the holding down bolts down tight then bend/pivot the rear end of the base to get the column plumb to the table ways using the rear jack screws/holding down bolts.

I used to set large Hor bores up on my own, you had to have a feeling for how much large castings move. How much will the DTI move on the 4 ft square if you give the ring spanner one British Standard Wallop with your dead blow hammer when you're hitting a Jack screw ten feet away from the square. The sort of machine that has 32 Jack screws and holding down bolts to go at.

All the best with it, you're already very near. Tyrone.

Click to expand...

Yea I am certainly not an install tech or repair guy so dealing with 6 feet is enough to get learning. I can't imagine a machine with outboard feet much less 32 points of contact!

So if Im getting this right...after a certain point (once it's basically level and dialed), just ignore level readings altogether and trust the DTI?

metalmadness said:

Yea I am certainly not an install tech or repair guy so dealing with 6 feet is enough to get learning. I can't imagine a machine with outboard feet much less 32 points of contact!

So if Im getting this right...after a certain point (once it's basically level and dialed), just ignore level readings altogether and trust the DTI?

Click to expand...

Yes, but trust the accuracy of whatever work/component is coming off the machine also. You seem to know when the machine is cutting correctly - the milling blending in nicely, components are coming off square etc

Regards Tyrone.

EVERY mechanical interface between the cutter edge and the workpiece (going the long way around . . . From the cutting edge if the insert, through the cutter body, to the collet / toolholder in the spindle, and on and on until the fixture / vise holding the workpiece) needs to be stable before the finished surface can be expected to be good. There are literally dozens of interfaces that can cause instability between the workpiece and cutting edge, if damaged, too loose, too tight, worn out, incorrectly lubricated, or contaminated.