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  1. #21
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    adama, that crossed my mind, I know there are companies making special tubing for those pumps, maybe there is something that resists fuel, it was just an idea, since the flow rate is so slow

    and in hospitals they might have a prescribed time for how long the tube is good for, be that a day or a week, or every time the equipment is taken out of storage etc.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    That's cheaper than I was expecting.

    DG, can you do something via positive displacement? Something like a rod-less hydraulic cylinder, couple prox switches, solenoid valve and a counter...
    We purchased about $350K worth of Micromotion Corolis meters as a company last year and get OEM pricing so I suspect that they may be a lot more if you ordered one off the street. i once told the guys at Instrumart.com what I was paying for one of the micromotion meters and they told me that I was paying close to their prices so I bet it is more in the $11K range for the average guy.

    I have also found shopping around that there aren't that many brands who make that low of a flow coriolis meter in his low flow range micromotion may be about the only one.

    About the only thing going for him in this application is his accuracy requirement of around 1% reading hopefully would lend itself nicely to some sort of cheaper industrial grade flowmeter if there is such a thing this class which from reading other's thoughts I am not sure if there is one.

    At any rate while dgfoster hasn't given us a budget I suspect that talking about Corolis flowmeters for this application is a lot like trying to sell a Mitsui Seiki 5 axis machining center to a guy who is really looking for a Harbor Freight drill press

    So rather than continue to hijack the thread my recommendation would be to call these guys;
    Flow Meters | Instrumart

    Every time I have called them they put me on the phone with a really sharp knowledgeable engineer guy who knows their products well, and steers me into an option rather quickly. No waiting or anything and they seem to sell to the general public with a credit card.This is one of those cases where getting someone who knows all the different products out there and can steer you to the right one is a huge help. I don't know of a single vendor who offers so much under one roof and seems to also sell to the general public. Other than that I would also say as others have mentioned give Omega a call,

    Just wondering is this a home foundry or is this a business and why does burn rate matter that much to you? Isn't it more about adjusting your flame till you get it just right and letting it go or are you doing enough of it where it really pays to accurately measure burn rates?

    One other thought. I wonder if anyone makes a data logging scale? Put your fuel tank on an electronic scale and trend the weight with time. Do you need instantaneous flow read to tell you that you are consuming 1gph, or are you just looking to see if you used 1 gallons in the last hour of firing? I wonder if there is a scale that comes in programmable units where you can calibrate it to gallons used over time. If not it is probably something you could program up rather simply in arduino, LabVIEW or any other programming language if you know any. I would think Omega's engineers or Instrumart may know of such a thing. It sounds pretty handy for lots of applications at least.

  3. #23
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    Micromotion makes a great meter! Smallest I've bought was a 0.10" but I know we have some 6's and maybe some 8's. All ANSI 600#.

    Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dumpster_diving View Post
    Not an expert, but peristaltic pumps being used for fluid delivery in a hospital context could not be more reliable (in my opinion). Might need to make sure the tube is appropriate to the fluid you're pumping but since the fluid is only in contact with the tube itself, that doesn't seem expensive nor complicated.
    Yes but there not pumping fuel oil into patients are they. i made great regular fortnightly money at one point servicing multiple film processing units all running peristaltic pumps, pumping saline they may do great, trust me though, the varying chemical delivery rates get seriously fucking expensive compared to what a system can be "tuned" to run at all the more so when your also paying to dispose of that waste. By fortnightly changing the tube we could run about 1/3rd the chemical and reliably more than half the expensive waste stream.

    The problem is finding a tube flexible enough and that is not damaged by that constant flexing whilst going unchanged by the fluid passing through it, trust me, a stationary bit of fuel line won't work, most of the things that make tube flexible are disolvable by said fuel too, tube hardens it cracks, it does not also recover to the same cross section, hence your delivery rate changes.

    Peristatic pumps have there uses, but trust me metered solvent delivery especially on a mixed solvent like fuel oil won't pay out well longer term.

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  6. #25
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    Well, lots of good ideas and all of them aimed at being helpful----much appreciated.

    As to why I need to be able to monitor fuel burn rate at any given moment vs just calculating burned fuel over a timed burn, being able to see how fast fuel is currently being burned allows the integrity of the fuel delivery system and atomization equipment to be monitored. I recently had an experience where crud gradually built up in the nozzle and it was only when melt times increased significantly that the problem was obvious enough to be detected then ferreted out and fixed. Had I had a flow meter in place, the reduced flow would have been evident much earlier and would ha ve saved me a fair bit of grief.

    I am using a Delevan (Hago) siphon burner in my melting furnace and their function has several variables---fuel pressure, delivery rate, atomizing air pressure and finally combustion air supply. If any one factor is off, the system no longer works optimally. the more I can accurately monitor the system in real time the better it can be optimized. And some of the factors are interdependent. For instance, atomizing air pressure affects fuel delivery to some extent independent of fuel pressure. I have certainly used the fuel weight measured over time to deduce burn rates over ten minute intervals, but it would be so much handier and informative to jsut be able to monitor a gauge.

    since budget is always a concern I want to find something as cheaply as possible that will provide accurate enough results. Since originally posting the question I have come across (because of better search wording---see my second post) the following fairly basic but I think likely adequate device:

    Liquid Fuel Oil Flow meter with 13mm diesel gasoline Gear flow sensor NEW | eBay

    Maybe it will work out and maybe not. I will post after giving it a try.

    Someone asked if this is a "backyard" operation. Well, it is a very small scale operation (just me) that provides a product that I sell to machinists and machine restoration folks---straight edges of my own unique design not otherwise available and arguably better than other designs previously available. If someone is interested there has been a moderate amount of discussion about my "Featherweight" Brand straight edges on on the machine restoration forum.

    Comment: If anyone is looking for a challenge, I suggest they construct a cast iron foundry of whatever size they desire and then design, cast, machine and sell their design to very critical machinists. Oh yes, add on the performance criteria that their product be second to none! Let the fun begin.... Actually, I do consider this to be a very enjoyable venture, but it has not been without considerable challenges.

    Denis

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    Nobody makes a tiny flowmeter, (like on a tig torch argon bottle) Can one be made that small? I would think that you could use a reamer for small tapered pins and ream whatever size was needed to fit whatever ball you had. Do it in some clear fuel resistant plastic. On second thought a glassblower could probably use a tapered pin to make a glass tube. If I understand correctly you just want to know where the "normal" flow rate is and see if it is not normal to clean or adjust as needed. With a tiny flowmeter the fuel may need to be a consistent temperature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Nobody makes a tiny flowmeter, (like on a tig torch argon bottle) Can one be made that small? I would think that you could use a reamer for small tapered pins and ream whatever size was needed to fit whatever ball you had. Do it in some clear fuel resistant plastic. On second thought a glassblower could probably use a tapered pin to make a glass tube. If I understand correctly you just want to know where the "normal" flow rate is and see if it is not normal to clean or adjust as needed. With a tiny flowmeter the fuel may need to be a consistent temperature.
    Not a bad idea. If the unit I linked above doesn't work, maybe "invent" something like your suggestion. I have a bunch of taper reamers. It could be calibrated. Then again, it would be preferable to have a unit not sensitive to position/attitude change as the equipment is not permanently fixed into position.

    I did not see a liquid flowmeter analogous to the gas flowmeter on my Tig setup. that was on of the things I thought might be out there. Guess not.

    Denis

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    Problem with a flow meter like that is how much fuel oil changes density with temp, the gear like positive displacement one should work far more reliably. There commonly out there for water flow in central heating systems and similar applications, problem again is the calibration for water is very different to fuels.

    FYI one of my wild ideas is to be able to cast small steel parts via lost wax, think like the sockets on bicycle frames. needless to say i hold very little hope of ever succeeding in doing so on a small scale, im literally after just dozens of each tops.

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgfoster View Post
    I did not see a liquid flowmeter analogous to the gas flowmeter on my Tig setup. that was on of the things I thought might be out there. Guess not.

    Denis
    I have a large dwyer flowmeter for liquid that came from an old employer. Looks lige a giant argon one.
    Dwyer is a well known company for flowmeters, have you looked at them?
    Here is a link to their MMA-30 flowmeter which measures from 1 to 8 gallons per HOUR for $30. It says water so they may have one rated for oil also.
    Link: Series MM | Mini-Master(R) Flowmeter is suitable for both gas and liquid applications with advanced features at a low cost. Compact flowmeter ideal for measuring small volume air. | Dwyer Instruments
    (You need to click on GPH when you get to link to see MMA-30)

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    Quote Originally Posted by adama View Post
    Problem with a flow meter like that is how much fuel oil changes density with temp, the gear like positive displacement one should work far more reliably. There commonly out there for water flow in central heating systems and similar applications, problem again is the calibration for water is very different to fuels.

    FYI one of my wild ideas is to be able to cast small steel parts via lost wax, think like the sockets on bicycle frames. needless to say i hold very little hope of ever succeeding in doing so on a small scale, im literally after just dozens of each tops.
    Casting iron is significantly more difficult than casting aluminum or bronze. Casting steel is a step above casting iron as the steel melts at higher temps than iron and is more reactive with the atmosphere. I believe the lugs on brazed steel frame bicycles are centrifugally cast. From my point of view (have brazed bike frames using them) they are amazingly thin in section and delicate in design. I hope you go for it. In your favor is the fact that the volume of steel to melt is quite small for bike lugs. So, furnaces and centrifuges can be small also---definitely a plus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    I have a large dwyer flowmeter for liquid that came from an old employer. Looks lige a giant argon one.
    Dwyer is a well known company for flowmeters, have you looked at them?
    Here is a link to their MMA-30 flowmeter which measures from 1 to 8 gallons per HOUR for $30. It says water so they may have one rated for oil also.
    Link: Series MM | Mini-Master(R) Flowmeter is suitable for both gas and liquid applications with advanced features at a low cost. Compact flowmeter ideal for measuring small volume air. | Dwyer Instruments
    (You need to click on GPH when you get to link to see MMA-30)
    Heck no, I did not know about Dwyer. I love the mechanical simplicity of this style of flowmeter. And reading their blurb the MM series of flowmeters are: " constructed from transparent nylon material providing high chemical resistance and is easily disassembled via the provided key for cleaning or reconfiguration."



    So it looks like they would be compatible with diesel. I would be ordering this if I had not already ordered the electro-mechanical device I linked a couple posts back. This will be my go-to if the EM device does not do the job. i understand that viscosity and density differences between diesel fuel and water would almost certainly require re-calibration of the meter. But that probably would not be too difficult to do. Thanks!

    Denis



  12. #31
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    I would think they have one that will work with your fuel. Probably a phone call to find out though.

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    I have an ill-informed and sort of ridiculous suggestion. Why not pump 10 times as much fuel as you need, measure the flow, then return 90% of it to the fuel tank? It might take some fiddling to make a device with one input and two outputs scaled 10-90, but once done, you could just mentally divide your flowmeter reading by 10.

    metalmagpie

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmagpie View Post
    I have an ill-informed and sort of ridiculous suggestion. Why not pump 10 times as much fuel as you need, measure the flow, then return 90% of it to the fuel tank? It might take some fiddling to make a device with one input and two outputs scaled 10-90, but once done, you could just mentally divide your flowmeter reading by 10.

    metalmagpie
    Thanks,

    Maybe not totally off the wall. Reminds me of using a current divider in electronics. Exactly how to implement it so that it is stable and reliable at various flow rates is less obvious to me.

    Denis

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    Magpie had the start of a good idea-I will add to it: Think how much faster your melt time would be if you had 10 burners instead of one, then the larger flowmeter would read correctly and still register clogging nozles

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    So how did you make out with the little Chinese flow meter? I am curious how well it can handle the turn down ratio to give you that little tiny flow measurement? While I suspect you may get some reading on the weenie little flows I am also curious to hear if you verified the accuracy of such readings


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