machining 65-18 nickel silver
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    Default machining 65-18 nickel silver

    I'm wondering if anyone has experience machining a "65-18" nickel-silver alloy. Composition is:
    Cu ~65% Ni ~18% Zn ~17% with a smattering of Pb, Mn, and Fe

    I have to churn out a bunch of lathe turned parts ~.5 inch diameter and ~.9 inch long with a profile bore down the center ~.8 inch deep with a square bottom. Stock size 5/8 inch.

    I am planning to use a 5/16 end mill for the square bottom hole but is 2-flute or 4-flute better for this material? Peck cycle to be used.

    For turning, are inserts for aluminum better than those for Fe alloys?

    My system is currently using neat oil for coolant - any problem with that? I'm sure there are better coolants but will the oil give me any issue?

    RPM? Feed? DOC?

    The spec sheet for this stuff says machinability is "20" compared to 360 brass at "100." Not encouraging.

    Any experience to share out there? I have been playing around with this a bit already and it produces long stringy chips and I'm concerned about machining the hole more than anything else. So, before I get too far downstream with the setup and bind and break a mill I thought I'd ask around.

    Thanks in advance.

    Cheers,
    Rich

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    The name you use, "nickel-silver" unfortunately is incorrect. Sort of like "German Silver" is/was a copper nickel alloy. What you are asking about is much the same. You want details for "cupro-nickel." Sorry I can't add any more. Machinery's Handbook probably give details about where to start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gvasale View Post
    The name you use, "nickel-silver" unfortunately is incorrect. Sort of like "German Silver" is/was a copper nickel alloy. What you are asking about is much the same. You want details for "cupro-nickel." Sorry I can't add any more. Machinery's Handbook probably give details about where to start.
    Sorry, but it is correct. It is alloy C75200 obtained from National Bronze. If you just Google C75200 you will see nickel silver come up all over the place.

    Copper Alloys | Copper Alloy - National Bronze & Metals, Inc. (scroll down) This is the source of the material and there are many other well known sources for nickel silver(online metals, etc.). They sell "copper nickel" as well but there's no Zn in those alloys. Admittedly, the name is misleading.

    If you look at MH you'll see more entries for "nickel silver" that you will for "copper nickel." They both exist but as I indicated, Only a tiny bit of Zn in copper nickel. The difference is Zinc.

    MH is very generic about describing cutting speed as they call out only one number for all alloys

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    I would have thought nickel silver had actual silver, but no...:

    Nickel silver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich L View Post
    I'm wondering if anyone has experience machining a "65-18" nickel-silver alloy. Composition is:
    Cu ~65% Ni ~18% Zn ~17% with a smattering of Pb, Mn, and Fe

    I have to churn out a bunch of lathe turned parts ~.5 inch diameter and ~.9 inch long with a profile bore down the center ~.8 inch deep with a square bottom. Stock size 5/8 inch.

    I am planning to use a 5/16 end mill for the square bottom hole but is 2-flute or 4-flute better for this material? Peck cycle to be used.

    For turning, are inserts for aluminum better than those for Fe alloys?

    My system is currently using neat oil for coolant - any problem with that? I'm sure there are better coolants but will the oil give me any issue?

    RPM? Feed? DOC?

    The spec sheet for this stuff says machinability is "20" compared to 360 brass at "100." Not encouraging.

    Any experience to share out there? I have been playing around with this a bit already and it produces long stringy chips and I'm concerned about machining the hole more than anything else. So, before I get too far downstream with the setup and bind and break a mill I thought I'd ask around.

    Thanks in advance.

    Cheers,
    Rich
    Far too many years since I worked with it, ('60-63) but it was generally considered rather nice stuff once you got to know it's characteristics. We made #00-90 screws for hearing aids out of it, amongst other uses, and the Puma pocketknife sitting here on my desk has end-bolsters made of it.

    A 'modern' copy of ancient Chinese 'paktong', and actually prized for its 'ease' of machinability in times past. See:

    Nickel silver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Bill

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    Tiny screws ... You see those on knives, too.

    I've got some of the 65-18 (C75200) variety on some knives as well and I've even made a knife guard out of some but I've never machined this particular 65-18 alloy. I have good bit of experience machining the C79200 alloy (more lead and more copper and less nickel) and that, indeed, is like machining 360 brass - piece of cake. I'm just concerned about drilling the hole in this gummier stuff.

    I will let y'all know. I'll try to avoid gaining experience from bad judgement.

    Cheers,
    Rich

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    That stuff IS terrible to machine. Just making a small screw to hold a pistol grip on is a PITA!!!!

    It's always been called Nickel silver or German silver forever. Lots of misleading old names like that out there: Look up "Dutch gold." A gold colored brass alloy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich L View Post
    Tiny screws ... You see those on knives, too.
    And old-style eyeglass frames. LOTS of stuff that wanted at least a 'bit' less verdigris than brass before SS became popular.
    I'm just concerned about drilling the hole in this gummier stuff.
    FWIW, the 'rule' was always carbon-steel or HSS, and sharp enough to shame Gillette, never carbide.

    Rake and clearance 'depends'.

    Some of our cutting was done with skivving tools that were all flat planes, no radii anywhere, and unground dead-flat on top. Went against everything I had been taught at school - but the Old Master who set it up had a good 65 year head start on me, and it mirror-finished in a single-pass to preset stops.

    We were turning out multiple tens of thousands of #1-80 and #00-90 screws annually on modified SB 9" ers before we stumbled over the #000-124 challenge and bought the first Hardinge.

    And hired a new Plant Manager .. who immediately farmed 'em ALL out to Vallorbs in Schweiz to be done more cheaply in stainless, thereby reducing cost, freeing scarce skill and machine-time, and fixing both the corrosion issue AND the need for uber-precise hand-stoned screwdriver blades we had ALSO fabbed ourselves at the rate of several hundred a year.

    Added: And for his next trick, he got 'engineering' to eliminate the screws AND their heated into place brass inserts entirely in favour of a hearing aid case that was cemented shut and buffed seamless. When service was needed, we slit the old case off, discarded it, and furnished a new one at a cost of under fifteen cents a go, buffing labour included.

    Sometimes the best way to do a given task .. is to not do it...

    Bill

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    Default Lost all my postings,can anyone help?

    My postings have all vanished,including my images. Can anyone help figure out what is wrong? I am not Plastic with 3 posts.

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    Hello Rich,
    I don't have a lot of experience with the materials you asked about,
    752 and 792, but worked with them a little making NS Ferrules for
    bamboo fly rods. 762 (18%NS) is nice stuff but it is a bit "grabby".
    I needed some step drilled holes. That is the first op was to drill a
    deep hole at 13/64" then finish out the top part of the hole at 15/64".
    When using a lever tail stock turret the 15/64 drill would grab the drill
    and suck it into the predrilled hole yanking the lever out of my hand.
    I had to dub the drills down to a zero rake cutting edge to get it to work.
    If you used a regular tailstock with drill chuck it was no problem as
    the tailstock provided enough back pressure to hold it back.
    I think this may be common for a lot of brass alloys too.

    The 792 that I have used machined about the same as 762 but it tends
    to get sort of gummy after awhile. That is the ferrules would stick and
    have to be cleaned to get them to go together after about a month of sitting.

    Larry S
    Fort Wayne, IN

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Wilson View Post
    My postings have all vanished,including my images. Can anyone help figure out what is wrong? I am not Plastic with 3 posts.
    Simple. IF you are who I *think* you are...

    You appear to have TWO ID's.

    The 'gwilson' one still shows up as 'diamond' and 'search' finds copious posts...

    Logout and log back in with the 'gwilson' ID and all should be well.

    Bill

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    Thank you,Thermite. I have no idea how my message got into THIS thread. I must have done something wrong. Problem was as you said. The forum got strange for a few days,and I hadn't logged back in in years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwilson View Post
    Thank you,Thermite. I have no idea how my message got into THIS thread. I must have done something wrong. Problem was as you said. The forum got strange for a few days,and I hadn't logged back in in years.
    Mostly I find that it is the 'puter and BROWSER that 'get strange' rather than websites in general.

    Even on uber-stable OpenBSD that has paranoid security, I find it wise to log out, shut-down the browser, and start over periodically.

    Best,

    Bill Hacker

    (married in Williamsburg BTW. Garden Gazebo of the Waller house. There's a Henry Hacker buried INSIDE Bruton Parish Church, in a marked grave, even, though at least a few Virginia Governors were not so honoured.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwilson View Post
    Thank you,Thermite. I have no idea how my message got into THIS thread. I must have done something wrong. Problem was as you said. The forum got strange for a few days,and I hadn't logged back in in years.
    George, I'm glad you've gotten your "moh-jo" back.

    Cheers,
    Rich

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    Probably the large shot of steroids I got in my worn out knee. Really made me a bit sick for some days this time. That hasn't happened before with these particular shots,but they can mess my head up pretty well.

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    OK - back on topic with an update. (65-18 nickel silver, also called alloy 752)

    I found the stuff very easy to machine and I got terrific finishes out of it using a variety of carbide inserts that I typically use for tough ferrous materials. I would like to try a type "F" insert edge sometime to see how that works out. The only problem I encountered is that the stuff generates long, unbreakable, stringy chips and that gives me a problem with boring a blind hole. The chip (yeah, one!) just balls up in front of the boring bar so I had to break up a G1 bore command into several with program stops to manually pick out the brillo pad stuck inside the bore.

    Any advice on that? My DOC is .010 in the bore (.290 bore) and the feed is .003. I drilled my pilot hole deeper than I would without this problem just to give room for the chip.

    The stuff also raises burrs if you just look at it. Entering the material radially raises a burr. Exiting a turning operation over an edge raises an exit burr. I did not go to extrordinary lengths to add little profile deburring code segments so I just dealt with it using a hand-held countersink and rattails. My guess is that machining copper would be about the same - never done much of that.

    Other than those annoyances, the parts came out peachy.

    Cheers,
    Rich

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    Something sucks with the System. I was an admirer of the "Auto Save" feature.

    Just lost another post, regardless.


    Ah, well, I wasn't making all that pertinent a comment, anyway.

    I am more pissed off that many times when I want to type the letter "t', I get sent to a new, blank, page.

    Forum glitch, or MS glitch?

    I gotta try that Dragon stuff, some more. Maybe I can train it to understand me better.

    George

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    What is it about folks named George from the east coast at the diamond level that gets them to this thread?

    ... though I do welcome diamond level inputs to my silly issues!

    Cheers,
    Rich

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rich L View Post
    OK - back on topic with an update. (65-18 nickel silver, also called alloy 752)

    I found the stuff very easy to machine and I got terrific finishes out of it using a variety of carbide inserts that I typically use for tough ferrous materials. I would like to try a type "F" insert edge sometime to see how that works out. The only problem I encountered is that the stuff generates long, unbreakable, stringy chips and that gives me a problem with boring a blind hole. The chip (yeah, one!) just balls up in front of the boring bar so I had to break up a G1 bore command into several with program stops to manually pick out the brillo pad stuck inside the bore.

    Any advice on that? My DOC is .010 in the bore (.290 bore) and the feed is .003. I drilled my pilot hole deeper than I would without this problem just to give room for the chip.

    The stuff also raises burrs if you just look at it. Entering the material radially raises a burr. Exiting a turning operation over an edge raises an exit burr. I did not go to extrordinary lengths to add little profile deburring code segments so I just dealt with it using a hand-held countersink and rattails. My guess is that machining copper would be about the same - never done much of that.

    Other than those annoyances, the parts came out peachy.

    Cheers,
    Rich

    Rich you might try a super sharp polished insert (alum. finishing) type. Arno brand VCGT if you have a holder for it. my .02

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    Quote Originally Posted by Murf View Post
    Rich you might try a super sharp polished insert (alum. finishing) type. Arno brand VCGT if you have a holder for it. my .02
    Thanks for the comment - yes, I was going to try that sort of thing (the "F" edge). I have to first try to find a tiny WCGT because that's what I've got on the little carbide boring bar (3/16 ø). I've got a 1/4ø bar that will take TCGT but that's really to big and not allowing anything to flow out of the hole.

    Part of the operation used a solid carbide grooving tool that I used to back-bore a finishing cut just to get the chip out of there. I had some grooves to make inside the bore anyway so I just continued with that tool.

    Do you think the sharp insert edge will break the chips better and get rid of my brillo pad? Or will it help by producing fewer/smaller burrs (cutting and not smearing so much as the hard metal style chipbreakers)?

    Cheers,
    Rich


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