Material for a chuck adapter

Going to make an adapter to mount a 12" 4 jaw to my CAZENEUVE
Posting in the general section as the material is the focal point not the type of lathe
Those not familiar with the mount, its a non standard mount w/3 "set screws" from the side into the spindle.
Using the 22" 4 jaw isn't practical for smaller work.
I'm going to need a piece 10-12" diam x 2" thick
Really don't want to use plate and considering 4140 annealed bar.
Any thoughts from the peanut gallery?

Mike

Cast iron works fine:

McMaster-Carr

Regards.

Mike

I had considered cast but the (2) 3 jaw chucks, 10" & 12" have adapters that are not cast

The adaptor I use to mount a 4 jaw on my lathe is aluminum, and it works..

I've made piles of adaptors for spinning chucks, always make them out of 1018,
or bison plain backing plates, and those are some type of cast iron..

If you go 4140, I don't think you'll notice any difference, and it might be hard
to source.. Speedy metals has hot rolled 1018 up to 15" diameter that you can
buy by the inch.. Check MSC for the plain/naked Bison chuck adaptors and wait for
a 35% off sale.. Others sell them also.

mjk said:

I had considered cast but the (2) 3 jaw chucks, 10" & 12" have adapters that are not cast

Click to expand...

Sounds as if you have the HB 500 or 750. Those for my smaller HBX-360-BC are not cast, either.

Nor, IMNSHO, should they be if using the pointy-wedge-screw mount option. Localized stress is higher than I am comfortable with, even on under 800 mm chucks.

IF, however, you can instead use Cazeneuve's factory-provided alternative - front bolting, "A" short-taper style - CI should be just fine.

Those two 3-jaw chucks can each contribute a Caneneuve-proprietary backplate towards better use before going-off for doorstops or welding fixturing. My one has.

2 Old Centime's Worth

And BTW .. did you get a recent price from either Cazeneuve or Ladner in France for the "factory" backplates?

I haven't yet dared to ask..

Yes point wedge mount on a HB575 ...can't change that
If I make it using for this system, the adapter stays on the chuck, and with the stress on the 3 screws, cast or aluminum isn't something I would feel comfortable with.

If I go with the front bolting, and cast had been considered, it would be a stacked mount that would require first attaching the adapter to the lathe then the chuck to the adapter each time.

"And BTW .. did you get a recent price from either Cazeneuve or Ladner in France for the "factory" backplates?

I haven't yet dared to ask.."

I think the last mention of a factory backplate to fit a specific chuck was quoted in the $2000+ 6 month delivery range

Fortuneatly this isn't a time sensitive matter, just on my to do list

mjk said:

"And BTW .. did you get a recent price from either Cazeneuve or Ladner in France for the "factory" backplates?

I haven't yet dared to ask.."

I think the last mention of a factory backplate to fit a specific chuck was quoted in the $2000+ 6 month delivery range

Fortuneatly this isn't a time sensitive matter, just on my to do list

Click to expand...

More "wish I may someday" list than "to do", but an adapter for the smaller -360 to each of D1-4 and D1-3 could serve me well as to use of the MANY items of nose-art here for the 10EE's + common surplus finds. IRRC, the HBX-360's D1 option, when so-ordered, was the less-common D1-5, but I've no need at all of going there.

Monarchist said:

More "wish I may someday" list than "to do", but an adapter for the smaller -360 to each of D1-4 and D1-3 could serve me well as to use of the MANY items of nose-art here for the 10EE's + common surplus finds. IRRC, the HBX-360's D1 option, when so-ordered, was the less-common D1-5, but I've no need at all of going there.

Click to expand...

Bloody Frenchies !

I was using both cast iron and steel. For an adapter I've made for a 12" 4 jaw I used a cast iron piece that was actually a round weightlifting plate - a nice and cheap (or free in my case)piece of cast iron.
For a 10" 4 jaw Skinner chuck I cut the blank (on waterjet) out of 38mm thick mild steel plate.

Most any grade of steel should do. The 4140 really won't help much unless you intend to harden it up a bit; and then will only be a bit more resistant to dents from careless handling.

I'd stay away from cast weight plates -- crappy enough material that it might not want to spin as fast as your chucks might be spec'd for.

PeteM said:

I'd stay away from cast weight plates -- crappy enough material that it might not want to spin as fast as your chucks might be spec'd for.

Click to expand...

Probably quite true for modern stuff - and that induces a lot of cast iron stuff, even import blank chuck adapters. The scrap weight plates I have are some century old...

billzweig said:

Probably quite true for modern stuff - and that induces a lot of cast iron stuff, even import blank chuck adapters. The scrap weight plates I have are some century old...

Click to expand...

I'm not too proud to run even Shars Chinese CI backplates on the D1-3 of the 10EE. For SOME of my nose-art. The more highly stressed goods use steel or semi-steel, and forged at that.

On the basis of Caze's conical screw attach option alone, I'd class even the very best of CI's as seriously inferior to decent steels. Weakest link the determinant, IOW.

There is plate and then there is other plate. A disc burned from ASTM A514 Grade F will give you 100K psi yield and machines nicely. Since its low carbon, there is very little hardening at the HAZ

johnoder said:

There is plate and then there is other plate. A disc burned from ASTM A514 Grade F will give you 100K psi yield and machines nicely. Since its low carbon, there is very little hardening at the HAZ

Click to expand...

And there are iron's and other iron's.

Ignorant, but common, A36 steel to Ductile Iron or Grey Iron, f'rinstance:

ASTM A36 Carbon Steel vs. Ductile Cast Iron :: MakeItFrom.com

ASTM A36 Carbon Steel vs. Grey Cast Iron :: MakeItFrom.com

Note ranges of expectations under "Mechanical properties", and also the first two entries under "Common Calculations".

mjk said:

"And BTW .. did you get a recent price from either Cazeneuve or Ladner in France for the "factory" backplates?

I haven't yet dared to ask.."

I think the last mention of a factory backplate to fit a specific chuck was quoted in the $2000+ 6 month delivery range

Fortuneatly this isn't a time sensitive matter, just on my to do list

Click to expand...

We know what happend 2sec after the big bang but the exact dimensions of the Cazeneuve cone is the last grand mystery to mankind.

I believe to have seen a quote by AMESTRA in the 600Euro (sixhundred) range.

captain-trumpet said:

We know what happend 2sec after the big bang but the exact dimensions of the Cazeneuve cone is the last grand mystery to mankind.

Click to expand...

Surely not an easy find, no, but Wot the hey - if you NEED one, but by definition, you have the spindle it has to fit right in front of you.

I believe to have seen a quote by AMESTRA in the 600Euro (sixhundred) range.

Click to expand...

Amestra (Germany & Brazil?) and perhaps another in Basque country Spain are among several other possible sources. There may still be a capability in Japan as well where Cazeneuve had factories of their own.

May be scarce, US/Canada, but ISTR seeing figures that Cazeneuve had made and sold about 40,000 HB series, then migrated to CNC a decade or three LATER in time than other survivors of such a transition.

I'd have had to call it "typically French" if their current line of CNC/manual-assist lathes still used that proprietary nose system, but the website indicates an ISO A1-6", A1-8", et al instead:

http://www.cazeneuve.fr/machines-en/optica-lathes/optica-360-en

http://www.cazeneuve.fr/machines-en/optica-lathes/optica-590-en

Monarchist,

Your posts I`ve read sofar showing vast knowledge and I`m just an amateur in machining so I`m basically wrong here and do not dare to ask too many silly questions.

Amestra (France) was bought out by SRW (Germany) and that quote I found is dated 2012 posted by a french reader in a french forum. The production facilities in France were closed in 2013. So it was Amestra-France I guess .

Yea I have the spindle in front of me but I`m not absolutely sure wether it is correct what I`m reading because the bed of my CAZ is a tad worn.

An old catalogue from Amestra showing Cazeneuve-HBY and Cazeneuve-HB Chucks and (steel-)faceplates to be of the same size.

This is what I found in a french forum:

Bonjour,

La conicité est une variation de diamètre pour un déplacement de 100
le nez de broche Cazeneuve est donc de type morse.
Celui de l’HBY 590 est spécifié sur un de ses plans : 5 % demi angle de 1.432 °

post #100
connaissez vous les "japan cazeneuve"?? | Page 7 | Usinages

Internet-translator:
The taper is a variation in diameter for a displacement of 100
the nose Cazeneuve is therefore Morse type.
That of the HBY 590 is specified on one of his plans: 5% half angle of 1.432 °

Cause I am an amateur I can`t figure what he`s saying although I have the MT-Taper chart in front of me. I`m playing with the numbers but I never ever get these numbers mentioned by that french guy.
So, whom am I supposed to trust ?
My readings (bed worn) or those numbers mentioned in the post which I can`t figure out, yet?


rainer

captain-trumpet said:

Monarchist,

Your posts I`ve read sofar showing vast knowledge and I`m just an amateur in machining so I`m basically wrong here and do not dare to ask too many silly questions.

Amestra (France) was bought out by SRW (Germany) and that quote I found is dated 2012 posted by a french reader in a french forum. The production facilities in France were closed in 2013. So it was Amestra-France I guess .

Yea I have the spindle in front of me but I`m not absolutely sure wether it is correct what I`m reading because the bed of my CAZ is a tad worn.

An old catalogue from Amestra showing Cazeneuve-HBY and Cazeneuve-HB Chucks and (steel-)faceplates to be of the same size.

This is what I found in a french forum:

Bonjour,

La conicité est une variation de diamètre pour un déplacement de 100
le nez de broche Cazeneuve est donc de type morse.
Celui de l’HBY 590 est spécifié sur un de ses plans : 5 % demi angle de 1.432 °

post #100
connaissez vous les "japan cazeneuve"?? | Page 7 | Usinages

Internet-translator:
The taper is a variation in diameter for a displacement of 100
the nose Cazeneuve is therefore Morse type.
That of the HBY 590 is specified on one of his plans: 5% half angle of 1.432 °

Cause I am an amateur I can`t figure what he`s saying although I have the MT-Taper chart in front of me. I`m playing with the numbers but I never ever get these numbers mentioned by that french guy.
So, whom am I supposed to trust ?
My readings (bed worn) or those numbers mentioned in the post which I can`t figure out, yet?


rainer

Click to expand...

The translation is correct. Not that common in "our world", but angles CAN be expressed as percentages, either of 360 degrees, or as a tangent - run-rise vs run-length.

That said, I don't get 5% (1 part in 20) to match-up with either the 1.432 degree "half angle" (degrees one side departs from the axis of rotation), or a 2.864 degree full-angle degrees one side holds to its opposite side of the nose taper, or the backplate cavity for it.

As to the reference to MT? The INTERNAL spindle taper is such, but I don't grok the "MT" relationship to the external taper. It is way larger than max MT, even if it "coincidentally" matches one of the several MT angles.

FWIW-not-much-dept, the Jarno taper is regular, all sizes, has no theoretical upper or lower size bound. MT & B&S are NOT regular, all sizes and DO have practical bounds.

BFD.

We shall just have to measure what we have, do trial fits, adjust, blue-up to prove, then PUBLISH.

I have ONE Cazeneuve HBX-360-BC in rather decent condition - the one Milacron was holding. It came with TWO backplates.

One is fitted to holding a rather useful Jacobs RubberFlex 900 series master chuck, one collet. "Useful" as I have another for the 10EE's, plus somewhere around 3 sets of collets and "butt plugs".

The other held a doubly-useless French "Handy" 200 mm / ~ 8" 3-Jaw chuck, two-piece jaws. "Doubly" useless because in addition to being a "what WERE they thinking?" 3-Jaw, it was also too large to clear the sliding cover or even the cross-slide leading edge if asked to grip stock much over 2" diameter.

Regardless.. that's three surfaces with the Cazanenuve proprietary taper, one that I can get a proper 4-jaw (Swedish made "SCA" brand ) 7 1/4" chuck onto.

Even so, my plan is to fab the new backplates on the 10EE so I can detach @ D1-3, still in 4-jaw, to "proof" them at progressive intervals against the HBX spindle, try again, etc. w/o need of fabbing - and "proving" - a "dummy" spindle nose.

That said ..if you have another lathe, please "beat me to it".

Having been so foolish as to trip whilst backpeddling behind a meant to be walk-behind, AND NOT meant to be fall-down-behind Toro "Dingo" tracked mini-front-end-loader, and run the overly-cooperative little b***h over my feet and legs clear to the crotch just over two weeks ago, it may be "a while yet" before I am functional in the shop.

If you can find it a slice of continuously cast ductile iron would be ideal. It is stable and as others have pointed out, actually fairly good in tension. It also machines beautifully unlike some mild steel etc.
L

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