Milling a 100m fishing boat ? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Thanks for your efforts.

    What about if it were a military application, the cost then is proportionate at least.

    The chips would be salvaged re-smelted, it's not lost money, surely. The upfront costs would be scaled and thus lowered.

    The main problem is skills, which are lost when ships are not built and lead times are extended for small orders to maintain them, but at greater cost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbowl View Post
    I can do it. I have a bridgeport clone in my garage with a 150m table.

    Shouldn't that be 150mm table?

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    Quote Originally Posted by daliss View Post
    Thanks for your efforts.

    What about if it were a military application, the cost then is proportionate at least.

    The chips would be salvaged re-smelted, it's not lost money, surely. The upfront costs would be scaled and thus lowered.

    The main problem is skills, which are lost when ships are not built and lead times are extended for small orders to maintain them, but at greater cost.
    You do realize aluminum is the most abundant metal on earth and the main contributing factor to cost is the energy used to process it, right?

    Even if someone were to do this you would end up with the worlds most expensive empty hull that still needs to be built out.

    For a ridiculous expense and amount of work you eliminated about 1% of the labor in building a ship. Not to mention it would be aluminum

    By the way, cnc machines don't program and run themselves either

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  5. #24
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    Waterjet a few sheets of aluminum and piece it together with flex seal.

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    I didn't know that. But if cost were not a factor when smelting, let's just assume energy is too cheap to meter, then the costs come down to time: how long would it take for a job like that, surely faster than a group of humans ?

    I envisage an empty hull being milled, with rails for compartments, which are milled separately and slotted into place, the design being modular and can be pieced together, your guessed it: with robot assistance.

    All of which can be done now, but what if your workers were in an accident, on strike, or busy on other jobs, I cannot see how this would not fill that role, particularly on costs, at scale.

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    I think this is what you are really thinking about...

    How to build a JetBoat Kitset - YouTube

    It is all cnc cut from sheet, just weld it up.

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    The OP opined about a 100 m boat form a solid block of aluminum.

    Where is the infrastructure to make let alone ship a single block 20X20X100 m ? That aside, a cast block is far weaker than rolled sheet and shapes. Aluminum boat hulls and superstructure are some of the most cost effective and fastest to build today. What you propose is technically possible but, both impractical and inefficient.

    A 100 m fishing boat is on the large size for aluminum anyway, why aluminum?

    Steve

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    3D printing is good enough for rocket engines, a boat would be trivial by comparison except for scale. Welding pieces together is cheap and fast, and when you have to repair damage you just cut out a section and weld in a new one.

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    so back in 1990 my wife (then girlfriend) rented a house with a bunch of people in Rhode Island. I am not a beach type of guy, I have to be busy.. so I started taking some sailing lessons. a friend and I rented a 50foot sail boat toward the end of the season. We had no resume so the capt stayed on board. he told us that the hull was aluminum. we were navigating through Block Island, and he takes the controls, we are handling the sheets. He looks away for a few minutes and we are about to broadside another boat in the harbor. I jump toward the wheel and turn away (fortunately in the right direction... if you sail you know that once the sheets are set, it's easy to turn one way, and hard the other, and my friend had let one of the sails loose when he saw it happening, so it stopped pulling hard too).

    He explains that no glass boat has a chance against this aluminum boat, that the hull is much thicker than the FG especially up at the nose, and it will just go right through a fg boat.

    So , since they are already making aluminum boats, and this was obviously pressed skins (and thick... I don't know how thick, but I would have to think 3/8 or better), why would you want to. why wouldn't you want to tig weld it? I see no advantage to milling it. it has to be much cheaper, easier to press small sections to shape, and then weld them together. OR in the case of a fishing boat, maybe weld the whole shape together.

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    Excellent topic.

    The US Military Industrial Complex could certainly do this for two reasons, if it is a black budget item, money is no object. In the USA we have the Federal Reserve which can put unlimited money to work just like they prop up the stock market and bail out GM, short answer no problem. May take 30 years of planning before they start work on it.

    Reality is China in cooperation with South Korea can do it now (if they wanted to) cheaper than the USA soo if we wanted one we would buy it from them. They could kick it out the door in months on budget and ahead of build date.

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    Biggest things I’ve seen milled from solid was concords wing ribs, spars whatever they’re called, the slabs were the length of an articulated trailer, 3’ wide 16” thick, milled on a NC punch tape bridge mill at a firm just up the road, think they were midcast numerical control, the failure rate was epic, they even made space shuttle bits, I was surprised!
    I would like to see a 20x20x100 block cast, is that over 10,000 tons?, 10800
    Dunno why that popped in I haven’t worked it out, but that would need a homogenisation cycle, rolling etc etc, perhaps 3D printing might work?
    I go with beyond human capacity myself
    Mark

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    To the OP, the 3D printing I mentioned would be using something like electro-arc melted metal, either Al or steel. Basically a giant MIG welder on a similarly large robot arm setup (or more likely, an array of welding robots).

    It would be interesting to do a study of what the crossover would be cost-wise, the replacement of giant rolling presses and cutting tables VS the robot arms and electrical costs for in-situ welding of hundreds of tons of 1/2" to 1" coils of metal rods.

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    I was at a local trade show talking to a salesman and I asked him just how big are the largest machining centers and he described ones with huge tables in eastern Canada. He then told me there were smaller conventional submarines in Europe that were machined in one position. He remarked that all the hatch openings and through hull locations were machined from the completed pressure vessel after it was welded up.

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    I seem to remember a good few years back they milled a racing motorcycle frame from a solid lump of Alu alloy, and a success it was not.


    FWIW didn't PMer Psychomill (dunno what happened to him) used to mill huge chucnks of Alu?

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    Quote Originally Posted by daliss View Post
    . . .
    I read the cost of a single metric tonne of Aluminium is approximately $1500 as of January 2021, so lets say that I need a fishing vessel around 100m long, and let's just say 50mt, that's a really good deal. . . .
    Not if you do the math. A cubic meter of aluminum is nearly $4000 at $1500 per metric tonne. Taking the 100 meters length times (say) 10 meters wide and 10 meters tall we have 10,000 cubic meters. A bit more than the 50 metric tons you're imagining for the billet. Now multiply 10,000 x $4,000 and see if it's still a great deal.

    Then, we can get on to the logistics of producing, procuring, shipping, and machining that billet.

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    I used to work at a small shipyard in Seattle that occasionally would make up an aluminum work boat. And I used to hang around a welding school where they had a guy who taught students how to make an aluminum boat. I believe that class uses 5 kinds of aluminum, each optimum for an area of the boat.

    There is no real magic in building a boat hull as long as you have access to some shipyard equipment. Outfitting it to become a yacht is a whole different story.

    However, if you were dead serious and really going to do macromachining, I would build the boat in sections that bolt together. It should be easy to machine watertight flanges since you're milling it anyway.

    metalmagpie

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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmagpie View Post
    I used to work at a small shipyard in Seattle that occasionally would make up an aluminum work boat. And I used to hang around a welding school where they had a guy who taught students how to make an aluminum boat. I believe that class uses 5 kinds of aluminum, each optimum for an area of the boat.

    There is no real magic in building a boat hull as long as you have access to some shipyard equipment. Outfitting it to become a yacht is a whole different story.

    However, if you were dead serious and really going to do macromachining, I would build the boat in sections that bolt together. It should be easy to machine watertight flanges since you're milling it anyway.

    metalmagpie
    And you would want to work with large forging might need to weld it
    Not so sure how the bolts would do corrosion wise.
    But then again the hull is the cheap part.

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    [QUOTE=daliss;

    But, can a single solid high grade piece of aluminium be smelted at that size, let along machinery to mill it ?[/QUOTE]

    No. No block of aluminum can be smelted of any size. Aluminum is "smelted" by dissolving the aluminum oxide that is the form found in Bauxite, the ore of aluminum in Cryolite and passing an electric current through it. The aluminum produced is a liquid and thus has no shape.
    Smelting is the reduction of a metal from it's ore. Melting is the change from solid to liquid.
    Smelting aluminum results in pure Aluminum and thus you do not have a suitable alloy.
    Get over this and write 10,000 times "I will not use a word that I do not know the meaning of".,

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    reminds me of the british plan to make aircraft carriers out of ice in ww2. Also concrete ships are cast in place over rebar frames.
    Some period reports state the concrete hulls were as solid as a high class teacup hitting the floor
    Bill D

    SS Palo Alto - Wikipedia

    I think her sister ship is still afloat off canada as a lumber mill breakwater

    SS Peralta - Wikipedia

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