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  1. #21
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    Hi
    I am fast reaching the conclusion that a direct drive spindle would not be suitable as a general purpose tool post grinder. The rated rpm is too high and reducing rpm reduces available power output.

    I am thinking a better option would be to use a larger diameter, slower rpm motor, which then requires a belt driven spindle. The RC and EV (scooters) market has compact, lightweight motors available like these ones:
    Motors for Multi-rotors Tarot 6115 High Power Brushless Motor (320kv / CW) - HeliPal

    brh5055 140kv brushless motor for electric scooter skateboard diy kit Sale - Banggood.com




    Dazz

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    I have a Precise brand direct drive grinder rated at 1 hp at 45,000 RPM, water cooled. I love it. One time I had it set up on my Sheldon lathe and a tool & die friend was admiring it. I ran it up and told him to feel the vibration. He put a hand on it and said "What vibration." I said "That's the point." Of course, you won't find one in a box of Cracker Jack and it does have the size problem, about 3 1/2" diameter. Even if you divide the hp down for a wheel over 3 1/2", you still will be able to do a lot of grinding.

    I also have a Dumore with a little universal motor driving a belt. The vibration is terrible, all from the motor. One of these days if the round tuit supply catches up, I will balance the motor.

    The best setup I ever saw was at a tool company in New York City. It had a typical spindle like you would expect on a belt drive, but the motor was an ordinary single phase motor on the floor. The round belt went up to a pair of pulleys maybe two feet above the lathe spindle, then forward to another pair on a piece of spring rod to carry it over the spindle, then down to the grinder spindle. There was enough range of movement in the spring to allow a wide range of grinding wheel position and motor vibration didn't matter.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazz View Post
    Hi
    I am fast reaching the conclusion that a direct drive spindle would not be suitable as a general purpose tool post grinder. The rated rpm is too high and reducing rpm reduces available power output.
    You seem to be coming into agreement with Mr. Hamilton & Mr. Beach in realizing their soda-fountain milkshake stirrer motor needed belts to a proper spindle with its own mount and good bearings, thus birthing "Do More than make milkshakes" AKA "Dumore" as a new venture.

    Personally, I'd copy a McGonegal (Themac). They did not, and "Dunot" do milkshakes worth a damn, but are better engineered and executed as TP grinders.

    "Precise" (==> Rockwell ==> Fischer Spindle) were never really meant for use by mere mortals, priced accordingly.

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    I cringe at putting any grinding wheel on a precision lathe; it doesn't matter how well you try to cover things up, abrasive dust will get into things, and almost impossible to completely remove (heck, you don't even know were it is, and it's there forever). Folks here often talk about keeping surface grinders and bench grinders, etc away from the machine tools, but then stick a grinder ON a toolroom lathe (?). The lathe manufacturers probably liked selling toolpost grinders, and showing them grinding along on uncovered machines...

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    Quote Originally Posted by car2 View Post
    I cringe at putting any grinding wheel on a precision lathe; it doesn't matter how well you try to cover things up, abrasive dust will get into things, and almost impossible to completely remove (heck, you don't even know were it is, and it's there forever). Folks here often talk about keeping surface grinders and bench grinders, etc away from the machine tools, but then stick a grinder ON a toolroom lathe (?). The lathe manufacturers probably liked selling toolpost grinders, and showing them grinding along on uncovered machines...
    I'm not fond of it myself. Nor on a mill.

    But it isn't REALLY that hard to control the debris.

    One does have to "want to" badly enough to do more work than toss the odd dirty shop towel (dangerous, BTW.) across the ways, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I'm not fond of it myself. Nor on a mill.

    But it isn't REALLY that hard to control the debris.

    One does have to "want to" badly enough to do more work than toss the odd dirty shop towel (dangerous, BTW.) across the ways, though.
    Thanks. I use an old emco 8 for *small* grinding stuff (with small die grinders, and Dumore mounted die grinders with a speed control), and have on rare occasion ground a little on a SB10K; I take plastic film and stick it all over with magnets, with basically everything covered, and since the parts are small, usually a vacuum can be crammed in somewhere. But covering things isn't easy with a large/long part requiring carriage movement, and a big grinder with lots of hardware. Only as some last resort would I put a grinder or abrasives on the Hardinge (or a 10ee or similar). If I need some big or long part ground, I just take it to someone that has the proper equipment. Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by car2 View Post
    If I need some big or long part ground, I just take it to someone that has the proper equipment. Cheers.
    .. and already knows how to get the best results out of it. Because it is their JOB.

    THIS..

    A(ny) professional grind shop has - for starters - more WHEELS than most of us can afford, more FiXTuRES than we have time to even fully understand the need of, and more TIME and experience at the use of their machines than anyone NOT a full-time grinder hand can keep up with.

    Truing a spindle taper or a collet-closer taper in situ - right on one's machine as it must be run - is about the only thing that makes much sense - to me, anyway - to DIY under yer own roof.

    If there's a greater need, it isn't for a TP grinder. It is for a surface, or cylindrical, or tool & cutter grinder, and then.. you become a grinder hand in a grinder shop and must expect to make all the appropriate investments - training as well as equipment and consumables - to do it properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    One does have to "want to" badly enough to do more work than toss the odd dirty shop towel (dangerous, BTW.) across the ways, though.
    I use oil wet news paper or paper towels. The grit sticks to the oil. If they get caught in something spinning, they disintegrate. Much much safer than any fabric near a machine tool.

    Dazz

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post

    If there's a greater need, it isn't for a TP grinder. It is for a surface, or cylindrical, or tool & cutter grinder, and then.. you become a grinder hand in a grinder shop and must expect to make all the appropriate investments - training as well as equipment and consumables - to do it properly.
    If TP grinders are rare here then surface/T&C/cylindrical grinders are like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
    I'd have to make one to get one. With carbide inserts, the utility of a T&C grinder is diminishing.

    Dazz

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazz View Post
    If TP grinders are rare here then surface/T&C/cylindrical grinders are like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
    I'd have to make one to get one. With carbide inserts, the utility of a T&C grinder is diminishing.

    Dazz
    With the repeatable precision that modern (CNC) machining centres routinely deliver, yah - grinding is nowhere near as essential as it once was for lots of goods.

    So why YOUR "need" anyway?

    And I'm reasonably familiar with both islands, given I've always preferred to tour by hired motorcar not tour bus or anything "organized". So yeah, NZ is not Ohio nor the Ruhr. But still...

    Industry exists. A market exists. Imports "happen" every day of every week.

    Looked for an Italian QCTP I hadn't seen in a few years, lo and behold one of the top google hits found it on the website of a dealer... in New Zealand!

    Scott Machinery - Engineering Machinery Specialist - Accessories - Lathe Accessories - Toolposts - Algra Rapidue Italian Quick Change Tool Posts

    More scouting. Less whingeing.

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  13. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by car2 View Post
    I cringe at putting any grinding wheel on a precision lathe; it doesn't matter how well you try to cover things up, abrasive dust will get into things, and almost impossible to completely remove (heck, you don't even know were it is, and it's there forever). Folks here often talk about keeping surface grinders and bench grinders, etc away from the machine tools, but then stick a grinder ON a toolroom lathe (?). The lathe manufacturers probably liked selling toolpost grinders, and showing them grinding along on uncovered machines...
    All true but....

    I simply have not had the luxury of having enough space such as a national lab to separate my equipment. What many have not realized is if you have a bench grinder anywhere in your shop, and worse if you dress the wheels, there is grit all over your machines. An eye opening test is to dress a bench grinder wheel, then turn off the lights, and using a narrow beam flash light, look around the shop, and watch the cloud of dust go everywhere.
    The only solution is, to constantly wipe down the machine you are using, and or wipe down the machine before moving anything.
    I had, and still have A toolroom lathe, and a jigborer next to a tool&cutter grinder, and a Sunnen hone. The lathe was in service for more then 2500 hours, I did grind its chuck jaws in place, used reasonable care, after that run, I took the machine home, and it still holds tolerance.
    I really need that cutter grinder at hand, right there with those precise machines, constantly wiping the ways, and trying to control the dust with shop vacs, mist, ventilation or whatever helps.

    If TP grinders are rare here then surface/T&C/cylindrical grinders are like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
    I'd have to make one to get one. With carbide inserts, the utility of a T&C grinder is diminishing.

    Dazz


    Myself, being into the repair of expensive mechanical objects, its not possible or economical to have all types of carbide inserts at hand, a cutter grinder makes many things much more possible. alot different then manufacturing.

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  15. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by dazz View Post
    If TP grinders are rare here then surface/T&C/cylindrical grinders are like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
    I'd have to make one to get one. With carbide inserts, the utility of a T&C grinder is diminishing.

    Dazz
    How's that then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazz View Post
    I use oil wet news paper or paper towels. The grit sticks to the oil. If they get caught in something spinning, they disintegrate. Much much safer than any fabric near a machine tool.

    Dazz
    Aluminum foil and any spray can full of oil works pretty well too. The foil tears without too much provocation, and does not tend to rope up if it does get snagged into the chuck.

    Best not done. Best left to others. So lets not do anything, and we all sit and wait for others to get it done for us, eh?

    Hope springs eternal. Or infernal. Depending on whether you are labor or management!

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    Hi

    This guy has made a DIY tool post grinder very much like what I had in mind. It is much lighter in construction than a commercial version with a mains powered motor.

    Dazz

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazz View Post
    Hi

    This guy has made a DIY tool post grinder very much like what I had in mind. It is much lighter in construction than a commercial version with a mains powered motor.

    Dazz
    What he has made seems to be belt drive, which makes for confusion as to what you have in mind.
    If you do want to direct drive a grinding spindle, it is very possible for internal grinding (several have discussed this) and spindles with ER collets and quality bearings are available for this purpose- no reinvention required. An electric die grinder may be a good start and they often have some speed control.
    The unicorns you spoke of do exist locally; it's a matter of keeping an eye out and developing good networks. I've owned two toolpost grinders, neither cost more than $200.
    In terms of the use of a tool and cutter grinder for carbide, I'd echo the comments of others and also point out that diamond wheels cut carbide, ideal for modifying carbide inserts and making tools with carbide inserts- of great utility where cutting tools are to be made. The Cinncinatti no.2 manual has some info inserted on grinding carbide tools, which in my limited experience is useful and relevant to today's carbide materials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dazz View Post
    Hi

    This guy has made a DIY tool post grinder very much like what I had in mind. It is much lighter in construction than a commercial version with a mains powered motor.

    Dazz
    Another clown with toy equipment in love with his voice. He could have done the video in 1/4 the time.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Another clown with toy equipment in love with his voice. He could have done the video in 1/4 the time.

    Bill
    There was more after the "...400 hundred pounds, so it's a pretty substantial lathe" over a Grisely Lathe-Shaped-Object called up the "tab close" button, then?

    Decent Colgate electric toothbrush and a gumband cudda saved him wasted time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    There was more after the "...400 hundred pounds, so it's a pretty substantial lathe" over a Grisely Lathe-Shaped-Object called up the "tab close" button, then?

    Decent Colgate electric toothbrush and a gumband cudda saved him wasted time.
    But it's a bench lathe! Two minutes in wasn't much more substantive. Preview saved 22 minutes of my day.
    I did wonder why a collet was needed to hold a grinding wheel though. Flanges are not good now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenwud View Post
    But it's a bench lathe! Two minutes in wasn't much more substantive. Preview saved 22 minutes of my day.
    I did wonder why a collet was needed to hold a grinding wheel though. Flanges are not good now?
    "Bench" lathe. well... yah. Guess that IS heavier than a barstool lathe or a kitchen stepstool lathe.

    Consider the source. Yah have a lazier way to de-burr a Chinese made collet as a byproduct to making a video?


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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Another clown with toy equipment in love with his voice. He could have done the video in 1/4 the time.

    Bill
    A quarter? Oh holy hells! Have you seen how many hours he dragged that out for?

    He made a friken CAREER outta that project!


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