Moog MHP machines Good value or best avoided?

GD Engineering · Sep 29, 2015

I've never used one of these machines before although I have heard of the company as their UK aircraft facility is in the next town to where I grew up.

Ive seen a few of these machines on eBay within my local area and have been quite tempted by the asking prices, but also surprised by the lack of uptake.

I'm aware that large groups of people don't often get things that wrong, but are they missing out on cheap CNC machine centers?

Ive done a bit of digging today and I see that they're Bridgeport based and everyone seems to hate them, but can't find any reason why. Early machines seem to use some sort of hydraulic or hydro-pneumatic control system and later machines seemed to use ballscrews. Without inspecting a machine is there any way to tell?

Presumably a ball-screw equipped machine wouldn't be a major issue to fit a modern control to.

Does anyone actually have any hands on knowledge of these either as an operator or in maintenance?

Any info would be much appreciated.

Gewehr 98 · Sep 29, 2015

I don't have any experience with these machines, but I do have a hefty operator & maintenance manual for Moog Hydra-Point dated 1975 if that could be of use to someone. In a cursory glance through it I find no mention of ballscrews, at least for this model/type.

GD Engineering · Sep 29, 2015

Thanks for that, I may need your manual if the guy accepts the offer that I made him.

specfab · Sep 29, 2015

I have no personal experience using one, but rather have a friend whose company bought one (used) in the 80's and my friend was in the position of needing to make it work for purposes of production. I suspect it was the above mentioned Hydra-Point configuration, based on the "era" and his description of it as air-over-hydraulic control/actuation.

In any case, I was frequently regaled with stories starting with "Do you know what that $&^*! machine did today?!?" So, good luck with yours. I hope it is more reliable.

moonlight machine · Sep 29, 2015

The only reason every one of those things has not been melted is because some one will always buy it! There's a sucker born every minute. You don't know it yet but you really do hope your offer is not accepted!

GD Engineering · Sep 29, 2015

Ive only bid scrap metal value for it and if it doesn't work out I can use its head on another machine.

Tyrone Shoelaces · Sep 29, 2015

I'm afraid " Moonlight Machine " is dead right. Thirty to forty year old technology that wasn't too great even then. Best thing about them was the paint colour.

Regards Tyrone.

Milland · Sep 29, 2015

You may have already found this thread: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...achinig-center-fs-financing-available-267914/

If CoolHand is still around, or can be emailed off his profile you should contact him.

Illinoyance · Sep 29, 2015

I had some experience with them 25 years ago. Wish I hadn't.
Very unreliable. Outdated technology even then.

Gewehr 98 · Sep 29, 2015

The manual I have came from a machinist estate sale here in OH; the deceased machinist had a handful or more Moog machines, and his son (the executor) said that his dad loved them and used them often for years. When they sold one unit (for maybe $700?) the buyers came back and said they dropped it off the trailer and broke some stuff, and could they buy some parts off the other machines. The son said 'just load up another one' so he could get rid of the unwanted machines.

If GD or anyone else can make use of the manual, I'd be glad to share it. I picked it up because it was headed to the dumpster, and dirty paper doesn't take up much space.

Other PM members might remember this estate sale, it was famous here on PM a few years back, was posted as 'the great Ohio yard sale' IIRC

jhruska · Sep 29, 2015

Ran a pair of them that had the tool changer.
Generally a fast machine. The rapid on the table is fast enough to move the machine a couple of feet if it is not anchored. I would program for a soft stop so it would not slam to a stop in G00.
The spindle will rapid down fast enough to over travel and the tool will hit the part or the table so go to final location via G01.
G-code is simple, but typing was tedious and there was no provision for a floppy download, just paper tape. I don't remember if it had an RS232(?) port.
Chrome ways and quill.
The mills were old when I ran them and when they did run they were great. There were numerous problems with the control boards that took them out of service. Otherwise a good candidate for a CNC-makeover.
John

Jim Williams · Sep 29, 2015

Scrap iron.

GD Engineering · Sep 30, 2015

Milland said:
You may have already found this thread: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...achinig-center-fs-financing-available-267914/

If CoolHand is still around, or can be emailed off his profile you should contact him.

Thanks for that @Milland, the one im looking at has the same hydro-path type control as a pose to the hydro-point control that everyone is dissing. From that thread Hydro-point seems to use ball screws and servo's. Personally i'd be quite happy to take a punt on a complete machine center for scrap value. The guy selling it says it weighs 2 tonnes so I do my own transport. I don't really want to commit a lots of money to G-code machine for now as ive only used heidenhain and prototrac before now. I'm also quite happy repairing everything to within an inch of its life.

I had a message back from the seller last night rejecting my scrap value offer on the basis that it will cost them more than that to move another machine out of the way to gain access.

Thanks to everyone for their input on this, its cleared things up a lot for me.

surplusjohn · Sep 30, 2015

20 years ago i sold a couple of these for very little money to some guy who was using the frames for a cnc conversion. at the time scrap was not bringing much so he could buy them dirt cheap. back in the early 90s there were several companies doing this type of thing, buying a specific old machine for the casting and converting it into something new. In fact there was a Chinese company that bought old Toyota engine blocks buy the boat load to re-manufacture them into new chinese engines.
long story short, hydralicly driven NC design was a poor stop gap until servos were available to do the job. the power was there but the precision was never going to be. I ran across a large nc engine lathe, it was either a leblond or monarch, that had all hydralic drives on it. Built in the mid 60s and still in use in the 90s. THe user could tolerate it since they were mainly turning shafts with it and it was very long, say 20 foot.

jhruska · Sep 30, 2015

I made parts with the Moog for NASA. Stainless plates with cut-outs and pockets for electrical devices. They were made left and right hand, had to be mirror image as they were welded together at assembly.
John

Davis In SC · Sep 30, 2015

surplusjohn said:
20 years ago i sold a couple of these for very little money to some guy who was using the frames for a cnc conversion. at the time scrap was not bringing much so he could buy them dirt cheap. back in the early 90s there were several companies doing this type of thing, buying a specific old machine for the casting and converting it into something new. In fact there was a Chinese company that bought old Toyota engine blocks buy the boat load to re-manufacture them into new chinese engines.
long story short, hydralicly driven NC design was a poor stop gap until servos were available to do the job. the power was there but the precision was never going to be. I ran across a large nc engine lathe, it was either a leblond or monarch, that had all hydralic drives on it. Built in the mid 60s and still in use in the 90s. THe user could tolerate it since they were mainly turning shafts with it and it was very long, say 20 foot.

On that same note, Boston Digital was buying up old Pratt& Whitneys, to convert to NC machines, IIRC.

andrewmawson · Oct 1, 2015

I had a Moog Hydrapoint 1000 in my home workshop 15 years ago. Absolutely superbly made solid machine. Read paper tape by blowing air through the holes. I made a PC interface for it using masses of pneumatic actuators which interfaced to a parallel port and amazingly worked. The machine reads a command at a time in parallel - that's 24 characters wide iirc.

It was grossly out dated then even for a home shop, and it had to go when I bought Bridgeport Interact, but I greatly missed the 24 station tool changer that the Moog had.

It used a rather unique spindle taper, with a recess in the rear that a 'spider' expanded in to pull the tool tight into it's taper - I think I still have one or two tools left from then.

GD Engineering · Oct 1, 2015

barbter said:
I'd stay clear.
I liked the idea of no ballscrew because no backlash. But old now, real old.
Why not pick-up a interact? All bearings available, ballscrews can be rebuilt, and Heidenhain controls still supported?

I've got a low hours Interact, but it needs the control unit repairing or replacing. For me they are one of the most enjoyable machines that ive used. I really enjoy using the the QC 30 tool change system. I am trying to find a second machine and currently have first refusal on an interact not to far from me when the guy can find another machine to replace it with. This would come with all the spare parts that I need to fix mine with to.

I would like to upgrade the controls on the interact so that I could use it with with cadcam on more complex profiles should I go back in to mold making. At the same time I don't really want to mess up £2-3k's worth of machine if I get it wrong which is why a scrap machine like the moog appeals to me, and it comes with a tool changer.

If it doesnt workout I have a nice Kearney and Trecker universal table with 3 axis power feeds that I could graft in place of its current table assembly. Then perhaps try and make the tool changer work under manual control.

Moog MHP machines Good value or best avoided?

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