Need help locating a local shop with a cup grinder in Germany.
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  1. #1
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    Default Need help locating a local shop with a cup grinder in Germany.

    I am restoring a neglected DoALL 1612 vertical band saw. This was exposed to rain and the top blade guide mounts to a 1" x 1.5" post, which slides up and down positioning the top guide according to work height. This post is about 21 inches long and was terribly corroded and must be replaced. I have purchased a 1" x 1.5" bar of cold roll. This must be ground about .010 per side to the final dimension. I do not have a cup grinder and I'm looking for a shop with a machine with a magnetic chuck that can do this for me. Suggestions please.

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    I can't help with a grinder in Germany, but I can tell you that if you try to grind.010 of off each side of a bar of cold rolled steel it's going to curl up like a banana. I would suggest you get a bar about 1 1/2 x 2" and mill it to size. If you're careful in the milling there is no need to grind it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIP6A View Post
    I can't help with a grinder in Germany, but I can tell you that if you try to grind.010 of off each side of a bar of cold rolled steel it's going to curl up like a banana. I would suggest you get a bar about 1 1/2 x 2" and mill it to size. If you're careful in the milling there is no need to grind it.
    That is certainly a concern. Is that always the case in your experience? Would it help to stress relieve it first? I have had that happen with bar stock in Germany, but never in the US. I am pretty sure that is how the original part was made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    That is certainly a concern. Is that always the case in your experience? Would it help to stress relieve it first? I have had that happen with bar stock in Germany, but never in the US. I am pretty sure that is how the original part was made.
    My experience with making things out of cold rolled steel is that unless you using it in the as rolled size it's going to distort whenever you take material off of one side.

    So in your case you want to take the 1.500 dimension down to 1.480 that only gives you .020 to machine off. That won't even get you under the skin. You could take .005 of of each side at a time to get it to the finish size you want. But that would take all day and it probably wouldn't be satisfactory in any case.

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    Cup grinder? You mean a Blanchard grinder or maybe one of those grinders used to true up car/truck engine cylinder heads?

    Surface grinders are very common in non-automotive machine shops. I have had a B&S No. 2 since 1979 and can confirm that trying to grind cold finished steel will prove to be from disastrous to just plain unsatisfactory. Same goes for milling in many instances. I usually have good results grinding or milling annealed O-1 tool steel, which can be easily bought in 1 x 1.5 x 36 in the US.

    Larry

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIP6A View Post
    My experience with making things out of cold rolled steel is that unless you using it in the as rolled size it's going to distort whenever you take material off of one side.

    So in your case you want to take the 1.500 dimension down to 1.480 that only gives you .020 to machine off. That won't even get you under the skin. You could take .005 of of each side at a time to get it to the finish size you want. But that would take all day and it probably wouldn't be satisfactory in any case.
    When I was young and foolish I designed a mounting bar for a 4ft Vernier scale. It was to go on a milling machine. The design was fine, the foolish bit was that I went and got a length of 1.25" square BDMS ( Bright Drawn Mild Steel ) from the bar stores to make it out of. One face had to be milled to have mounting feet and the opposite face had to be milled at an angle to mount the scale. The guy who was making it came to see me later, he said " You better re-think this Tyrone ". It was bent like a banana and obviously scrap. Black Bar would have been a better idea.

    Regards Tyrone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L Vanice View Post
    Cup grinder? You mean a Blanchard grinder or maybe one of those grinders used to true up car/truck engine cylinder heads?

    Surface grinders are very common in non-automotive machine shops. I have had a B&S No. 2 since 1979 and can confirm that trying to grind cold finished steel will prove to be from disastrous to just plain unsatisfactory. Same goes for milling in many instances. I usually have good results grinding or milling annealed O-1 tool steel, which can be easily bought in 1 x 1.5 x 36 in the US.

    Larry
    Hi Larry,
    I'm pretty sure you're right. I'm not in the US and inch material in Europe is almost non-existent. I'm going to give this a chance and I'll throw it in the scrap pile if it changes shape. I have no idea where to get annealed o1 in Europe. This cold roll cost me $100 and I still have not received a part quote from DoALL.

    I didn't use the term Blanchard grinder because it is a brand name, not a grinder type, but yes I was thinking of a vertical spindle grinder that uses a cup wheel as opposed to the typical horizontal spindle table grinder. I have 3 milling machines. I could use a shell mill on my horizontal or a face mill on my BP clone, but holding would be tricky. I was thinking a magnetic chuck is the right answer and I don't have one.

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    In my little town hot rolled steel is far cheaper than cold rolled. Were it me, I'd keep that chunk of CRS for another project and get some regular hot rolled for your saw. No need for O1 steel for this application.

    L7

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    Who cares if it warps......straighten it.....seems a far simpler job on a milling machine,than a grinder................I reckon I could make a perfectly suitable bit with an angle grinder..

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    Hi Larry,
    I'm pretty sure you're right. I'm not in the US and inch material in Europe is almost non-existent. I'm going to give this a chance and I'll throw it in the scrap pile if it changes shape. I have no idea where to get annealed o1 in Europe. This cold roll cost me $100 and I still have not received a part quote from DoALL.

    I didn't use the term Blanchard grinder because it is a brand name, not a grinder type, but yes I was thinking of a vertical spindle grinder that uses a cup wheel as opposed to the typical horizontal spindle table grinder. I have 3 milling machines. I could use a shell mill on my horizontal or a face mill on my BP clone, but holding would be tricky. I was thinking a magnetic chuck is the right answer and I don't have one.
    Blanchard grinding has become a generic term, kind of like Kleenex. As far as i know, it is always done wet, which should help with minimizing warping of cold rolled steel. The Difference Between Blanchard Grinding and Precision Grinding | Metal Supermarkets - Steel, Aluminum, Stainless, Hot-Rolled, Cold-Rolled, Alloy, Carbon, Galvanized, Brass, Bronze, Copper

    Some of the inch-size annealed O-1 flat stock I have was made in Sheffield, England, though I probably bought it years ago. The English call it silver steel gage plate and they still make it in inch sizes, though 18 inch is the common length. I think all of my 36 inch pieces were US made. Probably there are some European suppliers that would custom grind a meter of flat stock to your size for a price. Years ago, I bought custom centerless ground drill rod and it was not much more than the nearest standard size.

    Have you thought about milling the DoAll parts to use the full size 1 x 1.5 bar?

    Larry

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    Larry, CRS has internal stresses from rolling that in my experience cause warping whether cut/ground with coolant or not. Not my favorite material...

    L7

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    These people have milling machines and surface grinders in Germany, give them a call and ask them.
    Startseite or BELFOR DeHaDe | or Retrofit und Service beim Spezialisten | HDC Huttelmaier

    I have taught classes inside all 3 of these machine rebuilders and am quite sure that can help you find a solution to your problem. Please comeback and tell us what happens. Rich

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    Quote Originally Posted by L Vanice View Post
    Blanchard grinding has become a generic term, kind of like Kleenex. As far as i know, it is always done wet, which should help with minimizing warping of cold rolled steel. The Difference Between Blanchard Grinding and Precision Grinding | Metal Supermarkets - Steel, Aluminum, Stainless, Hot-Rolled, Cold-Rolled, Alloy, Carbon, Galvanized, Brass, Bronze, Copper

    Some of the inch-size annealed O-1 flat stock I have was made in Sheffield, England, though I probably bought it years ago. The English call it silver steel gage plate and they still make it in inch sizes, though 18 inch is the common length. I think all of my 36 inch pieces were US made. Probably there are some European suppliers that would custom grind a meter of flat stock to your size for a price. Years ago, I bought custom centerless ground drill rod and it was not much more than the nearest standard size.

    Have you thought about milling the DoAll parts to use the full size 1 x 1.5 bar?

    Larry
    Last night I posted a query to an outfit in Manchester that specializes in tool steels. I asked about a bar of O1..........we'll see. Yes I have thought about milling the bar guide to the CRS dimensions, but I consider that a last resort. I prefer to keep the machine original if possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard King View Post
    These people have milling machines and surface grinders in Germany, give them a call and ask them.
    Startseite or BELFOR DeHaDe | or Retrofit und Service beim Spezialisten | HDC Huttelmaier

    I have taught classes inside all 3 of these machine rebuilders and am quite sure that can help you find a solution to your problem. Please comeback and tell us what happens. Rich
    Thanks Rich, I'll check them out once I sort out the material issue.

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    This is a follow-on to this thread.

    I never got a response from either of the metal sellers in the UK on my O1 query. I was just ignored. The CRS arrived from Canada. The cost was $17.00C + $101.00C + 13 Euro import duty. From the US the cost would have been $13 + $289 shipping (eBay Global Shipping)

    I found a place 15 km away that had a large hydraulic surface grinder that could handle the 24" length with a long magnetic chuck. The CRS was no issue at all. About .010" was removed from all sides and it did not warp. . . . . . . I'm happy

    Thank you all for your help,
    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by john.k View Post
    ...I reckon I could make a perfectly suitable bit with an angle grinder...
    Then I think you're in the wrong forum...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky7 View Post
    Larry, CRS has internal stresses from rolling that in my experience cause warping whether cut/ground with coolant or not. Not my favorite material...
    Yeah, round stock in a lathe is fine because you're removing an equal amount of material all the way around.
    Flat stock is a whole different ball game--the internal stresses are not uniform and make removal of any material
    from the outside a problem...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LKeithR View Post
    Yeah, round stock in a lathe is fine because you're removing an equal amount of material all the way around.
    Flat stock is a whole different ball game--the internal stresses are not uniform and make removal of any material
    from the outside a problem...
    You are quite wrong. I have had warping problems with CRS round bar on many occasions. This issue is very real and common. I was really lucky with this 1x1.5 CRS bar. It was an error on my part to buy the bar for this job. Hind sight says 1018 or 8620 would have been a better choice. In any case not CRS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    This is a follow-on to this thread. I found a place 15 km away that had a large hydraulic surface grinder that could handle the 24" length with a long magnetic chuck. The CRS was no issue at all. About .010" was removed from all sides and it did not warp. . . . . . . I'm happy

    Thank you all for your help,
    Steve
    Glad everything worked out for you.


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