Need help wiring and reversing motor
Close
Login to Your Account
Results 1 to 18 of 18
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    29
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default Need help wiring and reversing motor

    I got this drill press years ago. Motor was running backward when I got it, no belt installed. Stuck a belt in there in a figure 8 and have used it occasionally here and there, but the belt doesn't like being twisted very much. Finally want to figure this motor problem out because, well, I've got holes to drill! I've been drilling important jobs on the mill, but there is no way this part will fit in the mill. Right side up, upside down, it either hits the head or the saddle. So I just need to fix the drill press.

    I don't know much about motor wiring (or electricity, to be frank), but I know the place to start is the wiring diagram. Well, the plate with the wiring diagram was missing when I got the thing. I've got the nameplate still, though. First thing I noticed is that it is a single phase 230v motor, but the guy I got it from was running it on 110v. He was a lineman, so I have to assume that maybe it's okay, or that he wired something to make it okay. Again, I don't know much about motors.

    So I am tempted to wire this motor for 220v, but without the diagram, I don't know if the previous owner changed something that would not take 220v. As for the motor running in reverse, I once found an article about how to probe the windings and find the proper winding to reverse, but I can't seem to find that now. Initially, I though maybe just swap the leads on the capacitor, but I'm thinking it's not that simple. Any ideas?

    By the way, the 110v were wired to L1 and L2. In the photo, from top to bottow, the terminals are 2,3,1,4



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    22,130
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    12723

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    I got this drill press years ago. Motor was running backward when I got it, no belt installed. Stuck a belt in there in a figure 8 and have used it occasionally here and there, but the belt doesn't like being twisted very much. Finally want to figure this motor problem out because, well, I've got holes to drill! I've been drilling important jobs on the mill, but there is no way this part will fit in the mill. Right side up, upside down, it either hits the head or the saddle. So I just need to fix the drill press.

    I don't know much about motor wiring (or electricity, to be frank), but I know the place to start is the wiring diagram. Well, the plate with the wiring diagram was missing when I got the thing. I've got the nameplate still, though. First thing I noticed is that it is a single phase 230v motor, but the guy I got it from was running it on 110v. He was a lineman, so I have to assume that maybe it's okay, or that he wired something to make it okay. Again, I don't know much about motors.

    So I am tempted to wire this motor for 220v, but without the diagram, I don't know if the previous owner changed something that would not take 220v. As for the motor running in reverse, I once found an article about how to probe the windings and find the proper winding to reverse, but I can't seem to find that now. Initially, I though maybe just swap the leads on the capacitor, but I'm thinking it's not that simple. Any ideas?

    By the way, the 110v were wired to L1 and L2. In the photo, from top to bottow, the terminals are 2,3,1,4


    Don't waste five minutes on it.

    Commodity item built for the bottom-dollar economy end of the range, "GE" or any other player "56 frame" resilient-mount and nowhere near new.

    Not worth your time. May not have much life left in the extra chit single-phase motors rely on to even START.

    Just go and get a NEW motor and DONE. Zoro/Grainger's "Dayton" line is still reasonable value for money. Single-phase fractional HP are "consumables".

    Don't waste yer time fighting that reality in a 2021 time-cost economy or it will drop you on your ass with a starter-fail right when you are REALLY desperate to hit a deadline.

    How did you THINK W.W. Grainger made their bones?

    Stocking the emergency coverage for chronic failures of small motors, maybe?

    Wellll.... that IS what they BRAG about - 93 years and counting!

    "The MotorBook—Where It All Started
    In 1927, a young electrical engineer named William Wallace Grainger started a wholesale business distributing electric motors. The first catalog, featuring only electric motors, was more of a pamphlet than a catalog. At only 8 pages, the cover of the MotorBook declared: “A Bright Future for Dealers Selling Motors.”


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Iowa
    Posts
    57
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    13

    Default

    I might have a drawing somewhere for it but it will take a while to look. If you really needed 2 speed and its a ball bearing motor it might be worth messing with. If its a sleeve bearing motor I would throw it away and find a decent motor.

  4. Likes BT Fabrication liked this post
  5. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    22,130
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    12723

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ferrretcatcher View Post
    I might have a drawing somewhere for it but it will take a while to look.
    Grainger publishes generic drawings for free that probably match it off a "Go-ogle"

    If it ain't easily reversible, fab a plate, mount it upside-down and carry on.

    You'd have to know penurious machinashitists who will spend a grand to save a hundred?




    If ever the loyal all-cast-Iron ball-bearing 1940's vintage INDUSTRIAL single-phase OEM one on the Walker-Turner ever DOES give up the ghost (new paint, bearings, refreshed contacts and both caps around 1974?).. there's a DC motor in my stash that will be right handy w/r a whole bunch of RPM choices!

    Lazyiyam. It ain't broke. Yet.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    29
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default

    Okay, okay….I get it. It’s an old dinosaur. It's just that this one came on the drill press, so I'm pretty sure the guy who put it on there knew it would work. And it runs strong, so I’d like to make it work if I can. But I’m not opposed to buying another motor. Heck, I don't even have to buy one, I have 4 or 5 brand new ones laying around somewhere. I'll post back tomorrow with some pictures of them, maybe y'all can help me see if one of the other new ones will be suitable to replace this. Still, if anyone has advice on how to reverse this one, please let me know. I already looked up the motor and couldn’t find the wiring diagram. I thought there was a way to do it by measuring resistance. If it’s not possible, I’ll forget about it.

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    22,130
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    12723

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    Okay, okay….I get it. It’s an old dinosaur. It's just that this one came on the drill press, so I'm pretty sure the guy who put it on there knew it would work. And it runs strong, so I’d like to make it work if I can. But I’m not opposed to buying another motor. Heck, I don't even have to buy one, I have 4 or 5 brand new ones laying around somewhere. I'll post back tomorrow with some pictures of them, maybe y'all can help me see if one of the other new ones will be suitable to replace this. Still, if anyone has advice on how to reverse this one, please let me know. I already looked up the motor and couldn’t find the wiring diagram. I thought there was a way to do it by measuring resistance. If it’s not possible, I’ll forget about it.
    Electrically, the average single-phase motor has no inherent allegience to direction. It just keeps going in whichever direction it was kicked-off in. Motors MEANT to be reversible simply make the start-only short-servce "kicker-off-er" winding available to a nut-driver and put the two directions on a supplemental dataplate. But.. if a motor was built to not be used that way, it is cheaper to not do that.

    Now you have internal surgery to do. And if two-SPEED, it may have the odd impediment to said surgery being fast and easy.

    You COULD disconnect the centrifugal start circuit - if even it has one.. that isn't the ONLY way to get a single-phase motor off rest - then twine-cord pull the bugger in the direction you want, hit the power, see if it HOLDS that OK under load 'til next shut-down.

    But... it has already accumulated oily smut indicative of over-oiling ELSE bearings losing control of what is meant to be close-held and recycled lubrication.

    You already HAVE other motors?

    "This is not two men trapped in a coal mine."

    Folks have cocoa to brew and popcorn to pop, "etc."

    One of our burnt-out flashbulbs is even apparently off fishing for unemployed bats with the remains of his Putz.

    Go figure the bats are trying to avoid him. Intellectual elitism thing.
    You'd have to know flying mice?

    Or maybe just wore-out single-phase motors?

    At least they don't harbour the rabies virus.

    Only the time-waster fungous. Athlete's foot family. Just more pernicious. Even stinkier, you should happen to get its feet and nuts on the wrong legs and let the smoke out.


  8. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    29
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default

    Grabbed photos of motors I have laying around. I have a few more, but they're mounted in machines and I need to get them out to photograph them. I think the remaining ones are mostly 1/2HP. But I have these now. However, in my searching of the interwebs today, I managed to find a similar motor to mine with a wiring diagram. It "turns out", (pun intended) that changing rotation was as simple as swapping the coil leads on the panel. My motor runs great in CW motion now. My drill press is up and running! The only thing I don't know about is the wiring for 110v. The motor plate is stamped 230v, and I am not certain yet if the previous owner changed the wiring to run on 110v, or if I am simply running it at partial power. It works fine for my needs the way it is, but I also don't know which speed it is wired for. Lots of unknowns I'd like to figure out.

    But here's what else I have. The one that has no specs, I still have to look up.

    Edit to add: I think the only ones that are frame 56 are the first one and the second dayton. Obviously I would rather use a proper frame size than have to machine parts to adapt. But I said I'd show what I've got, so I did.







  9. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Webster Groves, MO
    Posts
    7,985
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2077
    Likes (Received)
    3909

    Default

    As always a lot of sturm und drang over a simple problem. In the picture of the connections there are two wires with push on connectors, pink and blue (sort of). reverse them and the motor will start in the other direction. That is all there is to it.

    Bill

  10. Likes michiganbuck, atex57 liked this post
  11. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    29
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default

    Thank you very much for pointing that out. Too bad you weren't here last night! As you may have read in my last post, I figured that out today and got it changed from CCW to CW by simply swapping those leads.

    Do you have any recommendations as to how I might find out if the previous owner changed the wiring to run on 110v, and how I might find out what speed it is wired for? I am running it on 110v now, as I am not sure if it is okay to connect it to 220v with the current wiring. I have no shortage of power. I of course have 110v, but I also have 220v. I even have 3 phase 220v and a transformer that outputs 3 phase 660v, not that those apply to this motor. I just want to know what I am getting on this motor with 110v so I know what my RPMs are. I don't have a way to easily measure RPM, so I am trying to learn what I can about the wiring of the motor.

  12. Likes michiganbuck liked this post
  13. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    14,361
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4894
    Likes (Received)
    5197

    Default

    If it runs strong on 110..like you can put your shoe on the pully and not stall it is likely correct.

  14. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    29
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default

    It's drilling steel just fine, and my shoe has a gouge in the sole now. So I guess it's good!

  15. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    E-burg MD USA
    Posts
    684
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7
    Likes (Received)
    142

    Default

    Pelle Sir,
    I find these little reference books invaluable.
    Ugly's Titles Uglys Books
    Your mileage may vary but they have just about everything you will find you may have to deal with wiring wise.. If I may be so bold I'd recommend the electrical reference book first then move on the to motor wiring book.. ( the electrical reference book has the basic motor wiring stuff, like how to reverse motors and basic switch wiring, wire capacity etc..)
    Hope this helps
    Stay safe
    Calvin B

  16. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Webster Groves, MO
    Posts
    7,985
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2077
    Likes (Received)
    3909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelle View Post
    Thank you very much for pointing that out. Too bad you weren't here last night! As you may have read in my last post, I figured that out today and got it changed from CCW to CW by simply swapping those leads.

    Do you have any recommendations as to how I might find out if the previous owner changed the wiring to run on 110v, and how I might find out what speed it is wired for? I am running it on 110v now, as I am not sure if it is okay to connect it to 220v with the current wiring. I have no shortage of power. I of course have 110v, but I also have 220v. I even have 3 phase 220v and a transformer that outputs 3 phase 660v, not that those apply to this motor. I just want to know what I am getting on this motor with 110v so I know what my RPMs are. I don't have a way to easily measure RPM, so I am trying to learn what I can about the wiring of the motor.
    I haven't been watching the thread in the past. [I] looked at the opening and scrolled down to the pictures, and saw the connections. I should have read more instead of just glancing at the many posts, but didn't, so I did not see that you had managed the reversal.

    Re changing the voltage, sometimes these motors have dual run windings that can be connected in series or parallel for 220 or 110. In the 220 connection, they series the run windings and connect the 110 only starting winding to the connection between windings. That lets them get by with the same windings on both voltage motors and only have to pay for a 110 volt capacitor. The previous owner may have paralleled the run windings and made it a 110 volt only motor. Add that to it being a two speed motor, configurable for either 1750 or 1150 RPM and it gets more complicated. The adage is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I would leave it alone and make chips.

    Bill

  17. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    peekskill, NY
    Posts
    27,586
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6482

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    As always a lot of sturm und drang over a simple problem. ...
    Bill
    In a word: thermite.

  18. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    29
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    5
    Likes (Received)
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by calvin b View Post
    Pelle Sir,
    I find these little reference books invaluable.
    Ugly's Titles Uglys Books
    Your mileage may vary but they have just about everything you will find you may have to deal with wiring wise.. If I may be so bold I'd recommend the electrical reference book first then move on the to motor wiring book.. ( the electrical reference book has the basic motor wiring stuff, like how to reverse motors and basic switch wiring, wire capacity etc..)
    Hope this helps
    Stay safe
    Calvin B

    You know, that is a great recommendation and I sincerely appreciate it. I forgot I have a not too old copy of Ugly's Electrical Reference around here somewhere. I just looked for it and I realized I have not seen it since I moved last. Looks like I need another copy and I will review that as soon as I get it. Sometimes we forget the simplest solutions. Thanks for the reminder! Part of my job is troubleshooting and repair of industrial electronic and pneumatic systems. So I not a complete beginner, but the equipment I work on is very simple, comparable to automotive electronics systems. I almost always have a wiring diagram, and I understand it when I have that visual representation. This is new for me, but I think I will get a hang of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    I haven't been watching the thread in the past. [I] looked at the opening and scrolled down to the pictures, and saw the connections. I should have read more instead of just glancing at the many posts, but didn't, so I did not see that you had managed the reversal.

    Re changing the voltage, sometimes these motors have dual run windings that can be connected in series or parallel for 220 or 110. In the 220 connection, they series the run windings and connect the 110 only starting winding to the connection between windings. That lets them get by with the same windings on both voltage motors and only have to pay for a 110 volt capacitor. The previous owner may have paralleled the run windings and made it a 110 volt only motor. Add that to it being a two speed motor, configurable for either 1750 or 1150 RPM and it gets more complicated. The adage is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." I would leave it alone and make chips.

    Bill
    No worries, you provided the correct answer anyway! I am reluctant to tinker with it now, because like you said, it aint broke. I do want to learn more about this so I can have the knowledge next time I come across this problem. For example, I have a small lathe that needs a motor and I have no clue where to start with it. As you see, I have motors all over the place, but I don't know enough about them to know how to select and configure them. I have no problem with pulleys and clutches, but the motor specifics are like mysteries to me. It makes sense about the windings being in series or parallel to run on different voltages, but you're right, the speeds do make it more complicated to me. Again, I think my issue is the lack of a wiring diagram. While I may not entirely understand it, a diagram would at least show me what to look for to identify the current wiring configuration. I'll leave this one alone for now, unless it becomes a problem. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    In a word: thermite.
    I'm not sure it was wise to say it. I'm just glad it was you, not me.

  19. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Indiana
    Posts
    14,095
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    827
    Likes (Received)
    4822

    Default

    It is handy to be able to measure RPM of a rotating shaft, whether motor shaft or drill chuck. Laser tachometers used to be very expensive but, like most electronic stuff, have become dirt cheap. Here is one for $10.79 with free US shipping and you supply a 9V battery. Yes, I have one and it works very well. You also need a little scissors to cut the reflective tape.

    Digital Tachometer Non Contact Laser Photo RPM Tach Meter Motor Speed Gauge New | eBay

    Once you can measure or even calculate RPM, you need to understand cutting speeds for various combinations of work material and cutting tool. Rough guide is: cut steel slow and cut wood, brass and aluminum fast. More details available on the Internet.

    Feeds & Speeds For Drills | Norseman Drill & Tool
    https://www.imperialsupplies.com/pdf...eet_Update.pdf

    In general, a drill press that will be drilling in steel wants a slow motor and stainless steel wants slower yet. But that depends on the drill bit size, too. A drill press with a Jacobs 5/32" capacity drill chuck will want to run a lot faster than a drill press with a 3 Morse taper spindle.

    I have a Rockwell 17" variable speed drill press with a 2 Morse taper spindle. It has a speed dial with two scales, one for an 1140 RPM motor and one for a 1725 RPM motor. When I rebuilt it, I installed an 1125 RPM 1.5 JHP 3-phase motor, which allows drilling holes as big as is practical with 2 MT into most metals. If I never drilled stainless, cast iron or steel, the 1725 motor would be OK. And, the bigger the drill bits, the more HP you need, so the motor HP has to suit the drill press size.

    By the way, that GE two-speed air-over motor in post #1 was probably designed for use in a furnace blower for a commercial facility. GE made all sorts of special purpose motors, designed very carefully to meet the customer specifications (and no more) at the lowest possible cost. They closed the 1893 Fort Wayne motor plant on Broadway a few years ago, leaving some big empty buildings for developers to turn into new money making places.

    Larry

    17vsdp-3.jpg dsc01744.jpg

  20. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Webster Groves, MO
    Posts
    7,985
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2077
    Likes (Received)
    3909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by L Vanice View Post
    [URL="https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Tachometer-Non-Contact-Laser-Photo-RPM-Tach-Meter-Motor-Speed-Gauge-New/391682278342?hash=item5b321543c6:g:yp0AAOSwq9FdClF V"]
    Just what I need. I have had to calibrate a couple of digital panel meters on VFDs to read in RPM. First I had to calibrate my strobe light, get the speed adjusted to an even number and then adjust a pot to make the meter read right. Winding my career down as I am, I am not going to spend several hundred dollars on something I may only use a couple of times. This tach is exactly what I need.

    Thanks, Bill

  21. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    22,130
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    12723

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Just what I need. I have had to calibrate a couple of digital panel meters on VFDs to read in RPM. First I had to calibrate my strobe light, get the speed adjusted to an even number and then adjust a pot to make the meter read right. Winding my career down as I am, I am not going to spend several hundred dollars on something I may only use a couple of times. This tach is exactly what I need.

    Thanks, Bill
    Handy, yes. "For everything", not even close. So I end up with more than one type of electronic. And almost NEVER use that sort.

    = Optical (IR, I think?) that needs "some kind of mark", not always the tape.

    = Hall effect. Which can work off a gear tooth, even if you have to do a bit of simple math.

    = third one is both. There are noses that swap.

    Then there are the Old Skewl mechanicals, picked up very cheaply.

    = The oldest type a mere accumulating counter. One uses wall clock, wrist watch or stop watch. Six seconds is good. Tenth of a minute. Bump the decimal. Close enough.

    = Newer style has a stopwatch built-in that resets, then fires-off the time and rev counter in one hand-motion. Same deal, just really neat-looking and handier.

    Both live in the back of the drawer.

    Because the BEST of the lot is a Biddle that reads RPM instantaneously and constantly.

    NOW I can adjust DC motor brush timing, DC Drive (or VFD) parameters "on the fly" under load, wotever .. without need of finding a place for sticky-tape or taking multiple runs at the task.

    And the electronic ones stay in the drawer as well.

    "If you can only have ONE...."

    Antique Vintage James G. Biddle Co. 560 Hand Tachometer Steampunk Decor | eBay

    .. try to find the "full kit" that incudes calibrated friction wheels for when you cannot get access to press the rubber point into the END of the shaft.

    I have that. Also a Hamilton Watch Company unit made to do the same.

    Which limitation is the main reason those OTHER puppies still have space IN "the back of the drawer". One cannot always get at the end of a shaft..

    Horses for courses, better-yet a herd. I don't think i have $300 in the entire herd. And because I HAVE the goods, I actually use them rather a lot. Instead of having to just trust, just GUESS, or just not give a damn.

    Durned if milling cutters don't last longer, too. Go figure being trained on setting proper RPM "by ear" kinda suffers when yah go DEAF!



Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •